Woods74
Broke Senior
^mini-starter!
MA5 5-speed to 5.7 hemi?
- Thread starter MoparPowa
- Start date
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Buschi340
Well-Known Member
I had ;)
magnumdust
Well-Known Member
well that is the beauty of it, because they were designed so mustangs could have SFI bellhousings on their modern mustangs, the adapters are built to bolt to TKO bellhousings.(A QT one is sitting in my apt as we speak.)
Anyways, enough of my sort of hijacking, i agree on the QT for the R154/MA5/etc. That's the only thing putting me off from that swap. I wonder if a bellhousing blanket could be fitted to the dakota bellhousing?
MoparPowa
Well-Known Member
Alright... Pressing on with this for the good of mankind (as well as general info for others who pursue these swaps in the future). I purchased an 02 Jeep Liberty 3.7L bellhousing, flywheel, engine/bellhousing spacer plate and an MA5 transmission from an 08 Colorado.
The MA5 bearing retainer, and thus the AX-15 bearing retainer you would replace it with to use a slave style throwout bearing, interferes with the bellhousing, or vice versa.
I haven't gotten to mount the trans to the engine yet, would need to pull it back out of the car. Can't verify if the starter has good ring gear engagement and the input shaft doesn't require any modification length wise (doubtful). At this point, at minimum, I would have to modify the bellhousing or the bearing retainer. Leaning towards the bellhousing, as cutting that portion of the bearing retainer off would lose that corner bolt near the oil passage and invite leaks. On the other hand, modifying the bellhousing in that area could encourage flex and stress fracturing in the future. As best as I can tell at this point, the spacer plate is entirely unnecessary. I bought it on a hunch I might need it for locating the starter somehow but my best guess looking at the bellhousing is that it's just not necessary for this application. To be continued.
I could just use the 3.9L Dakota bellhousing and an 11" flywheel of some sort (4.7 maybe?) with the hemi crank bolt pattern. The Dakota bell bolted to the AX-15, which as noted above shares the same front bearing retainer bolt pattern. Leaves less room for exhaust, bigger flywheel and clutch, puts me out a little more money for the bell and flywheel...
I will (eventually) bolt the bell and trans up to the engine regardless and get measurements so other people don't have to wonder about these things like I did/do.
The MA5 bearing retainer, and thus the AX-15 bearing retainer you would replace it with to use a slave style throwout bearing, interferes with the bellhousing, or vice versa.
I haven't gotten to mount the trans to the engine yet, would need to pull it back out of the car. Can't verify if the starter has good ring gear engagement and the input shaft doesn't require any modification length wise (doubtful). At this point, at minimum, I would have to modify the bellhousing or the bearing retainer. Leaning towards the bellhousing, as cutting that portion of the bearing retainer off would lose that corner bolt near the oil passage and invite leaks. On the other hand, modifying the bellhousing in that area could encourage flex and stress fracturing in the future. As best as I can tell at this point, the spacer plate is entirely unnecessary. I bought it on a hunch I might need it for locating the starter somehow but my best guess looking at the bellhousing is that it's just not necessary for this application. To be continued.
I could just use the 3.9L Dakota bellhousing and an 11" flywheel of some sort (4.7 maybe?) with the hemi crank bolt pattern. The Dakota bell bolted to the AX-15, which as noted above shares the same front bearing retainer bolt pattern. Leaves less room for exhaust, bigger flywheel and clutch, puts me out a little more money for the bell and flywheel...
I will (eventually) bolt the bell and trans up to the engine regardless and get measurements so other people don't have to wonder about these things like I did/do.
MoparPowa
Well-Known Member
No specific measurements yet as I don't have a caliper but I promise I will get them when I purchase one. In the interim, if you have any simple tape style measurements you'd like, let me know and I'll do my best. That said, the input shaft doesn't appear to impact the crank and the splined portion does end before the pilot bearing would likely be located, so the hard stuff seems to be taken care of.
The center of the shifter falls about 24" back from the engine block, likely square in the torsion bar x-member, will confirm when I put the engine back in for tunnel mods. This doesn't matter for me but beware those who would attempt this swap with torsion bar suspension. I'm sure it can be done, just would require a bit more work and strengthening.
Couldn't find any of my exhaust manifold bolts so I tried holding it up as best I could. It's close but looks like the 3.7L bell is definitely the ticket in an early a-body. Pretty much nothing else fits in these early cars for exhaust and the 3.9L bell will push the starter pocket out even further. I'll update when I buy some bolts and check again.
Short of the required bellhousing modifications, everything looks to be coming together? Next step will be mounting the flywheel and getting a starter to check ring gear engagement. My plan at this point is basically to keep trying everything until I know the entire setup should work and then I will press on with the bellhousing mod. If I run into something seemingly too troublesome, I ditch it and go to the 3.9L bell and hope the exhaust clearance on the starter isn't a huge pain in in the butt (my picture would disagree). Hopefully the mod is minimal and/or I can find someone to tig it back solid so there isn't any structural concern.
FYI, the bolts the transmission uses to attach to the stock Colorado bellhousing were too long with the 3.7L bellhousing but they are M10-1.0 pitch and I used 30mm long for the test fit, only needed to be "long enough". Of course where I went they only had these in stainless, cost me well over a $1/piece. The bellhousing bolts I used were 3/8"-16x1.25", I think these were about the perfect length. I will update the hardware types/specs when I pickup grade 8 for actual assembly. Still need to source an AX-15 bearing retainer, clutch fork, throwout bearing, slave cylinder, master cylinder, hoses and pedals.
Your bonus picture for this post is a 3.7L Jeep Liberty flywheel. These are not made anymore, as best I can tell were only used from 01-04 and are external balance, so basically a major pain in the butt for this swap is the flywheel. However, it's for a 10.5" clutch, has 130 teeth and fits the hemi crank pattern. Fortunately, unlike the 2.4L models which used a dual mass flywheel, these are a "standard" flat steel style that should have no issues being resurfaced, balanced, etc.
The center of the shifter falls about 24" back from the engine block, likely square in the torsion bar x-member, will confirm when I put the engine back in for tunnel mods. This doesn't matter for me but beware those who would attempt this swap with torsion bar suspension. I'm sure it can be done, just would require a bit more work and strengthening.
Couldn't find any of my exhaust manifold bolts so I tried holding it up as best I could. It's close but looks like the 3.7L bell is definitely the ticket in an early a-body. Pretty much nothing else fits in these early cars for exhaust and the 3.9L bell will push the starter pocket out even further. I'll update when I buy some bolts and check again.
Short of the required bellhousing modifications, everything looks to be coming together? Next step will be mounting the flywheel and getting a starter to check ring gear engagement. My plan at this point is basically to keep trying everything until I know the entire setup should work and then I will press on with the bellhousing mod. If I run into something seemingly too troublesome, I ditch it and go to the 3.9L bell and hope the exhaust clearance on the starter isn't a huge pain in in the butt (my picture would disagree). Hopefully the mod is minimal and/or I can find someone to tig it back solid so there isn't any structural concern.
FYI, the bolts the transmission uses to attach to the stock Colorado bellhousing were too long with the 3.7L bellhousing but they are M10-1.0 pitch and I used 30mm long for the test fit, only needed to be "long enough". Of course where I went they only had these in stainless, cost me well over a $1/piece. The bellhousing bolts I used were 3/8"-16x1.25", I think these were about the perfect length. I will update the hardware types/specs when I pickup grade 8 for actual assembly. Still need to source an AX-15 bearing retainer, clutch fork, throwout bearing, slave cylinder, master cylinder, hoses and pedals.
Your bonus picture for this post is a 3.7L Jeep Liberty flywheel. These are not made anymore, as best I can tell were only used from 01-04 and are external balance, so basically a major pain in the butt for this swap is the flywheel. However, it's for a 10.5" clutch, has 130 teeth and fits the hemi crank pattern. Fortunately, unlike the 2.4L models which used a dual mass flywheel, these are a "standard" flat steel style that should have no issues being resurfaced, balanced, etc.
Try Rylis Productions for a flywheel. I've bought 4 from him. Two lightened steel ones, and two aluminum ones. Great looking products. Super great guy to deal with. Prices aren't bad, either.
MoparPowa
Well-Known Member
Thank you, definitely had no clue about this guy. I've already sourced this one and between balancing and resurfacing I'll still end up cheaper than a new one from him so I'm gonna continue down the current path. Not to say I wouldn't have gone that way if I hadn't already gone to the trouble of finding this one. I agree the pricing doesn't seem unreasonable. If I had more serious aspirations, racing/high rpm, I would definitely be looking for something SFI certified. Thanks again for putting this out there, I looked and looked and thought all of the aftermarket options had dried up for this.
I picked up an 05 starter from a local yard and then found out the part numbers are different from the 01-04. O'Reilly's had one in stock for an 03 and they graciously let me do some comparison. As best as I could tell, short of the motor portion being slightly longer, the pinion and everything else seemed to be exactly the same and a couple electrical connections were shifted in position on the solenoid, nothing significant for my use. I pressed on with mounting it after making another run for more test hardware. The starter required M10-1.5x45 according to a diagram and various part numbers I could find, however, 45 was way longer than necessary.
During install I noticed just how loose, side to side, the starter fits in the bolt holes of the bellhousing. While I'm not unfamiliar with the concept of shimming a starter for proper backlash and/or depth, you can't see this thing at all. It's not like an engine mounted starter with the bell off and just the flywheel mounted to the crank and you can see everything. I'm probably just dumb and missing something but the pictures of the OEM bolts that I can find aren't necked in anyway to take up the room in the giant mounting holes. I guess I just don't see how you could know the proper placement. The factory service manual PDF's I have found don't address this for either an 2003 or an 2005. I'd welcome any advice, experience, etc. in this area.
I did measure the depth to the end of the pinion gear extended and got around 3/4", I got a similar measurement from the face of the bellhousing to the back of the flywheel ring gear. Should mean the depth of engagement isn't a problem? Still no clue if the spacer plate I bought is really necessary for my application, don't see what it would offer short of pushing the transmission out a little further (maybe 1/16" at most). Would also reduce my starter ring gear engagement, lots of cons and not many pros yet. We'll see.
In other news, remember those previously mentioned expensive stainless M10-1.0x30 bolts I bought for mounting the transmission to the bellhousing? In my research to determine what the crank bolt size is for mounting this flywheel I found out it is supposedly the same bolt, slightly shorter. I picked up some M10 washers and thought I was all set. Turns out they will barely thread into the crank, no clue why unless they aren't actually the size the guy told me at the store and they just so happen to match the bolts that mount the MA5 trans to the stock bellhousing. Even the ATI kit I bought for the GM auto trans I was going to run mentions in the parts lists M10x1.0x30. I couldn't find those bolts of course... Regardless, felt like I was losing my mind and just decided to mallet the flywheel on as flat as possible, it fits tight to the crank anyhow. Maybe someone who has experience with this trans can confirm the bolt size that mounts it to the bellhousing?
Also got some hardware to mount the driver's manifold on and check starter clearance and verify the bellhousing clearance was for sure good. It fits! The heat shield on the starter was fairly close but a little tweaking and everything seems good.
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