Making molds of a part or 2

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yup finished them up and am waiting on the electrician to finish wiring up my vacu form... if he doesn't hurry up and get here soon it'll be too late for him and I'll just wire the darned thing up my self. if I do gimme some prayers when I flip that 100 amp 220 circuit on. I'd like no major melt downs to happen. while I THINK I have it under control I'd still like an electrician to double check me. I have it broke down into a main panle in garage going to a 100 amp sub panel with 3 30 amp breakers in it. then it runs to 30 amp plugs in the wall so I can unplug it from tyhe wall and store the darn thing out of the way when not in use. I only have 2 zones for heating right now using 220 contactors that are activated with 110 current just like on an electric stove. I made a little one with one zone a couple of years ago 2'x2', but sold it to a R/C guy for him to make clear cockpit windows for his bigger planes thinking I had no more need of it. ^&*^&% mistake! BUT it will turn out ok, just BIGGER now that I'm redoing it to make what I need now and hopefully in the future. no I'm not selling this one. darn thing cost to much to rebuild again.

I will add the 3rd zone to make a 5.5-6 foot long heater that will make LONG parts as time and money allow (I wanna make ABS consoles(12"x 53"),custom curved door panels(18"x44") for my darts AND recover my darn spare cracked and ugly dash pads (54"+) in 4 way formable vinyl not plastic!) Burt that's in the future . right now I have enough on my plate trying to finish up these projects .



Anyway here is a shot of the current project and future stuff I'm working on for my car and hopefully others. sitting on the finished 2'x2' platen that will make the parts if I ever get it wired!


I had to put a backer board on the parts to help in removal once I do use them to make the plastic parts.AND make them easier to cut out of the plastic sheet

it's a little under 2 inches total kickout, so with speaker grill on there it should be about 2 1/8 total kickout (I like it cause I can re locate the wire clip on the sidewall of the car and route the wires near the speaker and not have it bulge out when installed. (I hope)
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here's the next project to make plastic pieces for
Front splash shields for the 66 dodge dart. (it toolk a while for me to find a good set that wasn't rotted) now to reset the shape to the correct bends. when the bondo kicked it curled up a little(a LOT really 1"+), have to address that. and of course make it MUCH stiffer. there's a lot of foam there to compress and I don't want that to happen so I have to put in supports once the shape get's tweaked back in.

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next up is a glove box liner for my dart. left side of picture.I darn sure didn't like the repop ones and I was able to get a couple of good ones to use in my cars but they are fragile for a 40+ year old part. soooooo I made this one from a good liner. (used a LOT of bondo for that.. dang gotta go to the swap meet and get some more of that 14.00 cheapy stuff again.
A little smoothing and a backer board to help mount it and cut it from the sheet plastic and it's ready to go!
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whew. lot's more to do!
 
Thats awesome to see ! Lots of work there.How much over size do you make the parts to adjust for the shrinkage? I never took that into account, untill I asked a buddy about doing a 3D model of a slant 6 head, so I could shop around for a foundry.Shows how I dont know the field very well.
Great stuff, might look at some kick panals whan you get your extra sets.Keep up the great progress!
 
Kidd said:
Thats awesome to see ! Lots of work there.How much over size do you make the parts to adjust for the shrinkage? I never took that into account, untill I asked a buddy about doing a 3D model of a slant 6 head, so I could shop around for a foundry.Shows how I dont know the field very well.
Great stuff, might look at some kick panals whan you get your extra sets.Keep up the great progress!
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Thanks I have fun doing it.

here's a list I use.
COMPARATIVE MOLD SHRINKAGE VALUES
----------Material -------------------------Type-------------------- Shrinkage/in/in

  • Polypropylene-- -------Semi-Crystalline---------- 0.010 – 0.025
  • Polyethylene----- ------Semi-Crystalline---------- 0.015 – 0.040
  • Nylon (6-6)----- ----------Semi-Crystalline ----------0.007 – 0.018
  • Acetal---------------------- Semi-Crystalline -----------0.018 – 0.025
  • ABS -------------------------Amorphous-------------------- 0.004 – 0.009
  • Polycarbonate--------- Amorphous -------------------0.005 – 0.007
  • Polystyrene -------------Amorphous------------------- 0.004 – 0.007
  • PPO------------------------- Amorphous-------------------- 0.005 – 0.008




on a formed part that will curve around parts it's about 1% overage. that's 3 solid coats if hi build primer and sanding smooth . or 1 coats of slick sand and 1 or 2 coats of hi build.. I do have to spray thinned epoxy glue over top to lock things down solid after that. on flatter pieces (like the splash shields and kick panels) it's a little easier I shoot for 2% oversize and let them stay big to trim. there's a BIG tolerance on these parts I'm making. darn near 1/4 difference from 4 or 5 different sources(different original parts checked to verify).

ABS and styrene have a large shrinkage amount , comparatively speaking that is:D (acetal .025 and nylon .018 was the worst of the easily available and moldable stuff) polypropyline(late model gas tanks and red gas cans ect...) and the others ones that shrink bad take more equipment than I care to make. (injection molding and molds $$$$$$ not an easy task) I can make em but I just don't have that kind of money 10's of thousands(for a good DIY injection machine and a grand or better for each mold, no screwups allowed) and instead of just a grand or 2 for each of my machines. and LOTS a bondo and primer!:cheers:


for an exact to the thousandth replica It's a crapshoot. you just add or subtract layers until the part comes out right. using the above list as a reference you can come pretty close on the first try but to be exact you have to make mistakes and correct them.

heck I'm learning all sorts of stuff since I started my restoration project on the dart. am I a pro? NOPE , ask me about windshields,sidelights(side windows in a car) and back lights (DUH right) and running a NC machine, printing using a silk screening process to lay out 90% pure silver onto glass or robots that need programming to move and manipulate glass products and I can give ya a good response. With the stuff I'm learning as I go with a little experience from years gone by when I had a small 2'X2' one for my R/C hobby. The internet is your friend in this case!
 
just finished wiring up 2 of my zones in the vacuform to see if things were going to work or if I'd break it really good. hm turns out I didn't do too bad. it heated up right quick and warmed the garage up too while I was testing it out:angry4: now to set up the second zone and make sure it works also!
yeah baby!!!!, not to find a place that sells the ABS that I need.
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so I can test out some of the goodies I've been making!:glasses7:
 
Just got the final zone that I have working. :cheers: now to find a place that will sell me plastic sheeting that I need without charging me an arm and a leg for shipping! I was going to order some 4'x8' sheets and the shipping was more than the (78.57) 1 plastic sheet.$88.00 shipping from south Georgia near Macon, I could drive up there AND back cheaper than that! gotta find me a local supplier for sure!
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It is amazing what some of the members here can do! Very cool! Keep posting the info for us.
 
just trying to get things moving on the vacu form. I only have the smaller 2'x2' former plate finished, still waiting on some aluminum to arrive so I can finish the 2'x4' (which most of the parts I'm working on need in order to for them to be formed.) any way the speaker pod kick panels ARE done and waiting on my plastic to arrive so I can test it out:cheers: the glove box mold will also fit on the smaller platen so it'll get mounted this week to a riser board so I can also form it. all the rest require the larger forming plate.
I can't wait to get this thing going.
here is a couple pictures of all the parts in the works!
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as you can see some of them(well MOST of them) are still in an unfinished state. I can't believe how much bondo is used even with spray foam used to back fill a shell of the part and wooden supports stuffed in there so it doesn't collapse. Next swap meet/show I'm buying ALL the cheap 10-14 dollar bondo that I can find!

I have a couple more projects in mind for the vacu former but that takes a MUCH longer forming plate and another section of heating elements.
think dash pads and consoles plus the rear side panels themselves to go with the trim piece that i am making! So for rightr now I'm just going to concentrate on parts less than 46 inches.
 
I just couldn't wait to test it out and looked around for something to do. I found an old acrylic window that was laying around and unused and loaded it up into the former. well I learned a few things about the former by doing that
1. it shows EVERY flaw in the mold! (and I need to fix em.)
2. thin plastic STINKS!
3. damn it's fast.
4. I forgot how much acrylic shrank and almost destroyed the mold getting it off.:banghead:
5. darn sure didn't make enough slope in the speaker hole pocket.
6. I need to learn how to CUT the plastic:eek:ops:
7. the side edges need to be sloped also.
8. speaker fit good and didn't hit the metal wall.
9. I need to make the flat part of the kick panel CURVED to go over the wire hanger I have for the convertible top, tail light,gas gauge wire ect. wires . it didn't make any difference when it was just hardboard since that bent in order to clear the brackets and wires. plastic doesn't bend a so well.

all in all I'm pleased with my very first try using junk plastic. the thicker ABS will work a lot better and be easier to cut and form. as for the flaws I'm working on them now. and hope to have the final (maybe) kickpanel done by monday when the 1/8th ABS arrives!
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since my first try was using clear acrylic plastic (SUCKS) and came out looking terrible. every flaw showed on thin plastic. I decided to test it for shape and fit. the fit was AWESOME! well sort of. it does need a curved panel in my opinion. to go over the bracket on the drivers side that holds the main wiring harness that goes to the rear. the shape needs to be modified to a curved top piece to correct this problem. so I did make a new part and am testing the basic shape and curved section right now. I love how the home made CNC machine can do the work for me after I figure out what to tell the software.:D sometimes I don't tell it so good!. the first try of a curved panel was a disaster, the bit went over to the correct spot and went STRAIGHT DOWN through the backed board and buried it's self to the spindle nut! All the while I'm frantically flailing at the E stop button that was just out of my reach meanwhile slipping and sliding on bondo dust. I'm AM adding another one in every corner so that doesn't happen again. I looked like a keystone cops movie gone bad. Anyway after many really ugly tries I have a first curved surface panel made and the pod is next.
I'm headed down to ST Petersburg to hit the plastic's place up for the correct thickness of ABS and will/should be able to make a test piece for the drivers side sometime Friday!:cheers: it's been a long road getting this to work the way I want it to in order to make parts for my dart but I'm getting there!


popped an inch of foam on there to minimize the bondo usage. it uses enough as it is
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starting the main curved cut. and the pod location has already been leveled for later addition
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heres how much it's curved. about 3/4 inch raise to clear the bracket
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put a lead body file on it to show even better.
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all cut and curved plus all the extra bondo on the shape has been trimmed. waiting on the pod!
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here it is with the cnc shaped pod yeah I made the outside AND the inner side sloped so I could get the ABS off(unlike the first try:banghead:)
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should have a good part that I like by Friday or Saturday if it does work ok (now that I can really test it instead of hoping it'll fit) then I'll mirror the design and make the passengers side.
 
:cheers::cheers:Simply said,,,,,,,,,AMAZING. Wow great info, great work and a flippin great mind. Give your self a bat on the back...You done good really good
 
salinasjoel said:
That thing is sweet.. Have you made the rear panel tops yet? One of mine is ugly :)
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I want to get the passengers side kick panel mold done and making parts before I move on to the thin stuff. believe or or not the thin stuff is WAYYYYY harder to do then the thicker stuff. I found out that the thinner the plastic the better I have to make the mold, every flaw that I think I can feel shows up in .030 and .060 isn't much better. so it's got to be sanded to 400-600 grit sandpaper for sure. The .125 can be puled at a sanded 220 grit paper. so for thin stuff I treat it like final blocking with guide coat. whew lotsa work there.

I have picked up the .060 white styrene plastic for a test run.
the rear top panel molds need to be mounted for easy pull offs (they tend to crush real fast if I don't.) and made super smooth to stop any flaws showing.
that will take a little more time. but it WILL get done. heck mine were so brittle that after I made the molds from them they disintegrated. so I have to make em:eek:ops: it's amazing how much bondo filler you can go through to get a mold to the final shape. I think that I have used over 6 gallons of body filler working these different molds into shape. Thank goodness there are swap meets that have the cheapie stuff (not bondo brand it's to darn soft!& expensive)
now that I have finished the homebuilt CNC and Vacuformer I have lot's of irons in the fire and I am slowly working through them.
so right now the priority Vacuum forming list is:
1. 63-66 kick panels with 5.25 speaker pods in them (.125 hair cell ABS) 50% done need to make the second mold and test. fit looks good. I will remove my seats and install an old carpet to test final fit, but so far they look great!

2. 63-66 rear top side panel plastics (.060 white styrene smooth) black will come in as I find it.(at a reasonable shipping cost) molds made, not mounted yet

3. 63-66 molded glove box (.125 ABS hair cell ABS black)mold made, not mounted yet

4. 66 dart splash shields FRONT (.125 ABS hair cell black) molds made, not mounted yet. mounting and shaping to original bends need to be made

5. 63-66 splash shields (rear by the front door hinges)molds made, not mounted yet . mounting and shaping to original bends need to be madE


So I'm getting there.
 
Making some serious progress though. For me at the shows it's the little one off things like those kick panels is admire most
 
salinasjoel said:
Making some serious progress though. For me at the shows it's the little one off things like those kick panels is admire most
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Thanks I look at that stuff too!

I'm not going for a restoration "correct" part or car for that fact. as you can tell from my build , but I wanted the goodies (hey I'm ruined by newer cars) I LIKE cup holders,power windows comfortable seats good A/C and so forth. so I figured if I'm going to do another car for me it'll be comfortable with all the goodies I can stuff in it. If it means making a machine to make the parts ..... well I will! I don't care if I ever sell a part(it would be nice though to offset the cash used to build the darn machines and supplies), at least I know I have a custom setup for MY car.

plus restoration to factory correct is a LOT harder/expensive on the unloved Early A's or not as "popular" A bodies to most people.
I have done about 6 total numbers/date matching cars 1 70 Chevelle, 2 69 chargers, 2 70 challenger R/T's and a 65 Plymouth satellite. I swore I'd never do another numbers matching again, it's a pain in the behind, expensive as heck , way to many hours of research even before you pick up a wrench and not really worth the effort unless it's a 1 of 1 car.

As for parts. This one side did come out nicer than I had expected for the very first pull on the thicker correct plastic. I expect it to be even better as I learn how to use the new tools. I'm sending my first set to a friend of mine and have him do real time usage of the parts as I make em since he has his car running and is using it now unlike mine which still need a lot more parts made and put on it. So I might be altering the kick panels if I have to but they are looking good to go as of now.

The first try on thin plastic really cured me of thinking it would be easy to do. Now I have to hit a car swap show and pick up a couple (5 or more) gallons of bondo to get going on the rest of the parts.

ohh and learn how to cut it without ruining the new part!:idea1:

I've gotten some more Ideas (custom console out of ABS with built in cup holders, USB power taps ect.) told ya I spoiled:D
 
ok! :cheers:A few tweaks (sanding bad spots that showed &%^&$&) and I can officially say the drivers side mold is DONE! and ready to make parts.
here's what it looks like in my 66 dart with the dash board off for a better view
cutting it out is a Bear! I really gotta learn how to cut it out like the pro's do.
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a little oops and I took a chunk off the bottom edge &*(&^*
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dang I can seem to catch a break, drilled the holes wrong too! luckily a bigger bit fixed it! so I could shift it into position. I'll change that on the drawing and mold so it doesn't happen pn the passengers side.
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shifted the hole a bit to actually match the door windlace. Whew.
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Added the speaker to check things out.
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yup it'll stil clear the dimmer switch! NICE!!!
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and it doesn't come close to the fresh air door! yeah I'm good to go!
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I will say it again, that is a awesome part! You have dedication.....and you should be both happy and proud.
Andrew/Kidd
 
here are a few with the speaker installed on the first piece, a couple of adjustments(hole location and speaker opening size) to my setup and I'm going to be ready to pull some parts! it was a heck of a lot more work than I really wanted to do, but nobody made the panels for the early A's ... now to finish up the other side and make sure I know what I'm doing:D

speaker mounted on the panel I left a little bit on so you could move it if needed or use a larger grill than what I have and it won't overhang.
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yep hole location is off a bit and will be fixed (already done on passengers side now to relocate the drivers mold manually.)
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here's how far the speaker is above the flat part of the panel. It clears the metal side of the car by about 3/16th of an inch
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working on the passengers side now and I am at the "slap more bondo on it " stage.
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I just made the passengers side. dang they came out nice if I do say so.
here's both parts made up and test fitted.

here's the new pieces for the kick panels
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backside showed they pulled pretty good. might have left in the heat a little bit more though.
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cuttin them out on the cnc. (you didn't expect ME to cut it straight did ya?:D, if ya did it would not happen)
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fresh air door misses it by over an inch hmmmmmmm.
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both sides cut out and ready to mount speakers in.
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matched up pretty darn good. (takes a lot of work ot match the 2 when mounting on the cnc darnit, gotta figure out an easier way)
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oops not quite aligned perfectly. yep gotta fix the mounting in the cnc.
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ready for a bath since I got them so dirty cutting them
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ready to GO!
 

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this is what they look like after I gave them a bath to clean the dirt off and trim up loose ends.
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corners are rounded off to make them
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gonna try a flat rate box and see if they fit in one of them.
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here is the slots on the dart so you have a LOT of leway to mount them

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these parts fit the 63-66 dodge dart and plymouth valiants. probably the early cudas too (gonna have to check with Waggin to make sure, so don't hold me to it.) they fit 3 inch deep 5 1/4 speakers there is 3 14 inch space behind the panel so that the speaker does not hit metal.
1. they clear the fresh air doors on both sides.
2. they have the locator holes made about .2 and can be slotted for different cars with thicker carpet. the 4 door, the v8 convertible and my /6 ALL had slightly different screw locations since the slots that the screws went into were slotted up and down. a little less that 7/16 long.
3. the bottom kickout part that was added for stiffness and to help keep dirt out of the carpet edges can be trimmed up to 3/8th of an inch without loosing any stiffness and "looks" for those with well insulated and thicker carpets. (just score it (heavily in the peak if the curve and it'll break in that area. or just sand it down)
4. edges have been molded in with a soft edge and CNC cut(you really,really don't want to see my hand cut ones. think 400 lb fat lady that lost 300lbs,yeah that bad.)
5. made out of rot proof and crack resistant .125 ABS haircell plastic.

I've already got some sets promised and am waiting on some more abs to be shipped to the house. 84.00 + shipping for those here on forabodiesonly.
 
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