Massive caster variance Side to side

-

Boduke

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2020
Messages
405
Reaction score
167
Location
Mass
So just got my new longacre caster /camber gauge.. prior to this I was using a level and just setting uca for most caster .

I checked side to side and at 0.5 negative camber both sides.. and 1/8 toe in.. I have +1. 5 caster on driver and negative 3 degrees caster on pass side. Idk how this is even possible. I checked it like ten times..

I swapped the pass uca with moog offset bush just to get to negative 3 from negative 4.. .i can get the number down to negative 2 on the pass side if I run negative +1 camber but something is wack here. frame looks good and K member looks good. What am I missing here. No wonder my steering is sheite. Any ideas.

Everything is stock 73 big ball.. im guessing bent spindle or wonky LCA bush? Or front strut rod bush..Ill take any suggestions
 
Did you lock the brakes to do your caster turns?
 
Also,
if you loosen your k frame bolts you can “Shift”it one way or the other.
But Rusty is right. There is a tool for pushing on brake pedal up to steering wheel or front seat. Hood prop rod works too. Like Leslie makes.

I’m not a fan of a “do it yourself alignment.” Maybe to get it close but without turn tables, I believe your pissing in the wind.
 
Lock the brakes? I did not. How would
This effecti t tho? To give me +1.5 driver side caster and - 3 pass side caster. Afaik. The tool use by the shops is to lock the wheel im the center position..but i could be wrong abouth that… maybe k frame is tilted ill try that
 
Lock the brakes? I did not. How would
This effecti t tho? To give me +1.5 driver side caster and - 3 pass side caster. Afaik. The tool use by the shops is to lock the wheel im the center position..but i could be wrong abouth that… maybe k frame is tilted ill try that
You cannot get a measurement on caster with the brakes not locked. Caster measures the arc that the spindle makes during the caster turn. If the brakes are unlocked, there's no way to get an accurate measurement. The wheel rotating on the spindle will greatly affect any measurement you get.
 
That isn’t very clear, Rob.
Why would an unlocked brake matter?
Cars don’t move on alignment racks so the brakes are redundant.
 
Last edited:
That isn’t very clear, Rob.
Why would an unlocked brake matter?
Cars don’t more on alignment racks so the brakes are redundant.
Because the unlocked brakes allow the wheels to turn, which affects the caster measurement. If they are allowed to rotate, it's impossible to get a correct measurement. Not to mention, with the DIY caster gauges, what are you turning the front wheels with? The tire. With the brakes unlocked, you are severely affecting how caster is measured turning the tires using your hands. The proper way is to have the brakes locked and do the caster turn using the steering wheel, but that's about impossible to do using the DIY caster gauges. I guess you could do it with two people.
 
Thanks for trying but that still makes no sense to me.
I watched the video that junkerup (Chris Birdsong) put on YouTube and using hand held gauge, the brakes were never touched.
 
Where are your cam bolts in the adjustment range? Also can you see by eye that one side has negative caster when you turn the steering wheel? If so the inside wheel would be negatively cambered.
 
Check the strut rod bushings on each side. Are they the same type? There are various rubber replacement ones. If someone replaced one side it may not have matched the other.

Also there are two lengths of strut rods. One for 67-72 K-members and another for 73-76. Maybe they are mixed?

I put a B-body strut rod on my 68 Barracuda once to replaced worn out threads. That was WAY off! And they look close... until you measure shoulder edge to shoulder edge.

I'm sorta surprised you only got 1 deg gain by putting in the moog 7103 offset UCA bushings. Did you install them like this?

moog-k7103-bushings-jpg-jpg.jpg
 
Last edited:
Thanks for trying but that still makes no sense to me.
I watched the video that junkerup (Chris Birdsong) put on YouTube and using hand held gauge, the brakes were never touched.
Then he did it wrong. I don't know any other way to explain it.
 
Also look for a bent Lower Control Arm.

One on left is bent. It's bent in the middle of the forged insert between the rivets that sandwich it to the rest of the LCA.

Common place for them the bend.

4651705-PICT1048.jpg
 
Last edited:
Because the unlocked brakes allow the wheels to turn, which affects the caster measurement. If they are allowed to rotate, it's impossible to get a correct measurement. Not to mention, with the DIY caster gauges, what are you turning the front wheels with? The tire. With the brakes unlocked, you are severely affecting how caster is measured turning the tires using your hands. The proper way is to have the brakes locked and do the caster turn using the steering wheel, but that's about impossible to do using the DIY caster gauges. I guess you could do it with two people.
This still doesn't make sense.

I have these:

IMG_7090.JPG


IMG_7092.JPG


IMG_7093.JPG


IMG_7098.JPG


IMG_7102.JPG


IMG_7103.JPG


If you didn't see his video, here it is:



He used a gauge like this:

IMG_7095.PNG


It is held against the hub. The wheel is not turned with the gauge attached, the wheel is tuned hard left and measured, then hard right and measured.
New tricks on an old dog.
 
This still doesn't make sense.

I have these:

View attachment 1716256530

View attachment 1716256531

View attachment 1716256532

View attachment 1716256533

View attachment 1716256534

View attachment 1716256535

If you didn't see his video, here it is:



He used a gauge like this:

View attachment 1716256536

It is held against the hub. The wheel is not turned with the gauge attached, the wheel is tuned hard left and measured, then hard right and measured.
New tricks on an old dog.

I don't need to see his video, but I thank you. I did alignments and suspension work for the vast majority of my working life. The turn plates don't have a thing to do with what I am talking about. It the spindles were not inclined and the caster was at zero, it wouldn't matter. But the spindles are both inclined (SAI) and there is a caster angle as well. Those are compound angles. Tell you what you do. Go out and start your car. Turn the wheels lock to lock sitting still. Now do it again with your foot on the brake and watch how much the front end rises on the side you turn TOO.
 
I know that with a strong caster angle (positive or negative) there is a pronounced tilt to the wheel and tire at full lock. Yes, I'm aware that this can lift or droop the car based on the angle. What I'm missing is how the brakes affect this in any way. I'm not rotating the tire. It does not spin. Even if the tire rotated a couple degrees, The gauge I posted is only placed against the hub after the tire is turned and is at rest. It has a series of bubbles like a conventional level. It gets reset each time it is placed on a hub to measure caster and camber. If you have never seen this tool, you must not be familiar with how it works. Again, it is placed against the hub with the wheel at rest. You don't leave it in place to measure a "sweep". At rest, what effect does the brake have to do with anything?
If you used conventional alignment racks and equipment and did not watch that video, then you are not seeing what I am seeing.
Because I never was trained in aligning cars on a rack, I'm not seeing what YOU are seeing.
 
I know that with a strong caster angle (positive or negative) there is a pronounced tilt to the wheel and tire at full lock. Yes, I'm aware that this can lift or droop the car based on the angle. What I'm missing is how the brakes affect this in any way. I'm not rotating the tire. It does not spin. Even if the tire rotated a couple degrees, The gauge I posted is only placed against the hub after the tire is turned and is at rest. It has a series of bubbles like a conventional level. It gets reset each time it is placed on a hub to measure caster and camber. If you have never seen this tool, you must not be familiar with how it works. Again, it is placed against the hub with the wheel at rest. You don't leave it in place to measure a "sweep". At rest, what effect does the brake have to do with anything?
If you used conventional alignment racks and equipment and did not watch that video, then you are not seeing what I am seeing.
Because I never was trained in aligning cars on a rack, I'm not seeing what YOU are seeing.
I don't know how else to explain it to you.
 
This must be a way to check alignment that you’re not familiar with. If you refuse to watch the video, you won’t understand.

303A96FE-53E8-4B54-A75A-3BE30AFC2437.jpeg


This gauge attaches to the hub.

C2874FF8-6838-4053-9196-9328782FAEC5.jpeg


Here are the instructions.

1D929802-A40B-4D25-AC0B-4DA2F78D3D2E.jpeg


BF2B6EB4-49CE-4D74-9473-4D046BA2F01E.jpeg


34C483DC-911B-4949-B612-2424907E267A.jpeg


If this type of tool is foreign to you, I understand. Young guys in construction used to bring in new style tools that I didn’t think I’d like. Sometimes I was wrong and the new thing was better than the old way.
 
I also watched birdsong
I checked both sides ten times and made changes as i went with repeatable results
I persinally dont think in this instance the brakes matter but for ***** and giggs ill re do it with brakes locked.
In the mean time ill focus my attention on the lower arm maybe being bent or the bush being clobbered or pulled away. Also ill re
Check the offset bush orientation but i know its correct. Ill also check strut rod length side to side.(and i have a new spindle which is going in). Because drivers side numbers were perfecto i dont think its the K.. also the car drives nice and straight and i dont see any pronounced tilt to the wheel that looks out of Ordinary.. main issue here is just wander at speeds=caster. Thanks for all the input to help me collect my thoughts in this. If all else fails at least i know i have bergaman uca to save the day. But id like to get it right and not use them as a bandaid.. but i will if i have to.
 
Last edited:
Also look for a bent Lower Control Arm.

One on left is bent. It's bent in the middle of the forged insert between the rivets that sandwich it to the rest of the LCA.

Common place for them the bend.

View attachment 1716256508
Looks like a bananna
Why do the bend like that? Hit or just forces? Im assuming there is no fixing that?
 
I won't pretend to know your problem(s), but like Rusty, I spent many years doing alignments in a tireshop. So I can tell you how to figure it out, hopefully in the least frustrating way. Here goes.
I always check the CASTER first at Zero-CAMBER.
Caster you know, so lets look at camber.

In order to check the camber;
> both lower BJs need to be on the same imaginary transverse line that runs from one side of the car, thru the centers of both inner pivots, to the other side, at 90* to the centerline of the car, and
> the center of each LBJ needs to be equidistant from the centerline of the car,
> and the center of both lower BJs need to be at the same distance from the ground, and
> both spindles need to be pointing away from the centerline of the car, at 90*

Thus, the engine-cradle/K-member, which carries the Control arms, in which the LBJs are mounted, has to be square and centered between the frame rails, assuming the rails are in the correct spots.
If the car has had it's frame tweaked, good luck with that. Now you have to "string" the car on a dead flat groundplain.
Next, the K has to be leveled in front view, where they are screwed to the framestubs.
Then the LBJs have to be adjusted to be in the right place, using the Strutrods, and set to the same vertical height from the ground plain.
This now is your reference. From here, the UCA is manipulated, to make the other angles accurate.

I always start with finding the maximum caster at exactly zero camber;
If the two sides are more than one-half a degree different, I go hunting for why.
If I can't get zero camber, I go looking for why.
If I can't get positive caster, I want to know why.
>Only after the caster has been bugged out, do I adjust the camber. Now, as to setting the camber, you have to set the ride height first, to near the factory specified height, in order to minimize camber changes when the suspension changes, while driving in the straight ahead direction; which camber change causes a toe-change, which is witnessed as wandering, or even a pull.
Failure to set the ride height correctly, is a sure way to waste your time messing with your alignment. If you need your ride height to be other than factory, you use tire size or rear spring arch, NOT the T-bar adjusters. Well, you can if you are in or near, the center of the camber-change/bump-steer, window)
If you have one weak spring on the back; then, to level the car in side to side, you will have to crank the T-bars differently, which will raise/lower the inboard reference of each LCA, putting the LCAs in different parts of the camber-gain window. Don't do that, get new springs first, then do the alignment. Or, in a pinch, jack up the rear end on a pivot pin in the center of the banjo, until the rear frames are equidistant from the ground plain; then adjust the T-bar preload, then go back and recheck the rear frame height, as many times as necessary to get it right. Once both ends are leveled, in side-to-side, then you can begin, from the beginning. Honestly, as soon as you put the rear of the car back on the ground, your alignment will take a sheite, so just get new springs, or fix the old ones..
In order to get more caster, for whatever reason, you can use the Moog Bushings. But if you have camber problems before the install, you will only have the same problems afterwards and if you don't install the bushings exactly right, you could introduce even more problems. I like the Moogs and have successfully installed quite a few sets, but not always exactly per the instructions.

The key to a successful alignment starts with:
1) having the K in the proper place, and
2) having the LBJs in the proper place
3) having the LCA pivot pins in the proper place

As to the use of the brakes during changes in turning angles, I have a different opinion.
IMO with a locked brake, this causes the the chassis to rise and fall during the turning action. This of course causes the control arms to change angles. I leave it to your imagination as to how that affects your measurements.

Finally, all your alignment angles are set for the straight ahead direction. Absolutely every change in the direction of travel are gonna change the alignment angles. Throw cornering into the mix with the suspension rising and falling, will only make the changes greater and faster. Thus you can see the importance of having the wheel being worked on, pointing dead ahead, during all adjustments and the measuring of the changes; and I'm talking about the dead ahead of the wheels, and NOT the of the steering wheel, which has to be centered after everything else is finalized. That is the last step and is very important not to forget about, especially on Chryslers.

And double finally, if you don't have floating turning plates, your other option is like @Kern Dog shows. Ok fine, but, if those plates do not float on each other to relax the suspension, then you are gonna run into problems with repeatability. So say you get a reading that needs to be changed, say you change it, then you retest it, but now the measurement is really way out there! So the question is, did you adjust too far or was the suspension not fully relaxed. You could be adjusting all afternoon chasing after the right number while the whole time, it was just those slip plates. So, if you use those, be aware of their limitations.

BTW, you cannot use the fenders for references.
You gotta use the stub-frames, and you gotta make sure that the stubs are properly located by the firewall, the aprons, and the core support, not to leave out the importance of the welded floorpans, the integral rockers, and the T-bar anchors; both front AND rear. If the aprons have broken welds at the firewall, for instance, all bets are off.

Ok so, that's all I got,
Happy HotRodding
 
Last edited:
I got the kerndog slip plates and my camber is spot on at -5 degrees both sides with caster being 5 degrees apart side to side Something is bent. Rest assured ill find it. My money on LCA
 
-
Back
Top