Missing at cruise. 5

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aaronk785

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Just pulled my 340 and set in the new 408. Engine runs well and is stout but I have a random miss at cruise rpm. About 3000. Same carb and distributor as the 340 which didn't do this. Initial is at 24 and 32 total and 50 with vacuum advance hooked up to timed port on carb. If I unhook the VA it almost goes away. Is 50 to much. Soon as you lightly accelerate it goes away. Carb is a out of the box proform 750 dp. I think I might be lean at cruise. This is a 10:1 engine with ported sm heads and a solid 254 260 at .050 cam. 3.91 gears.
 
Yup. You need to back off the vacuum advance adjustment. MAYBE even back off initial a couple degrees.
 
It could be lean...or too much timing at cruise. I lean towards too lean [ pardon the pun ] because of the large cam. It will want more timing. If the carb has a choke: engine idling, close choke blade until engine runs rough; back off a tiny bit & secure choke blade in this position for test drive.
No choke: raise fuel level about 1/8".

Test drive.

If fixed, engine could be on the main jets...or transfer slot, which gets it's fuel from the idle feed jet.

Have you checked the transfer slot position on the carb, 0.040" or less showing? If more, carb needs bypass air. With more air, idle jet will probably need enlarging slightly, 0.002-3". You could try bigger pri jets first, but I think this is an idle cct problem.
 
It could be lean...or too much timing at cruise. I lean towards too lean [ pardon the pun ] because of the large cam. It will want more timing. If the carb has a choke: engine idling, close choke blade until engine runs rough; back off a tiny bit & secure choke blade in this position for test drive.
No choke: raise fuel level about 1/8".

Test drive.

If fixed, engine could be on the main jets...or transfer slot, which .

Have you checked the transfer slot position on the carb, 0.040" or less showing? If more, carb needs bypass air. With more air, idle jet will probably need enlarging slightly, 0.002-3". You could try bigger pri jets first, but I think this is an idle cct problem.
""Carb is an out of the box proform 750 dp""
""gets it's fuel from the idle feed jet""

Possibly lean: A quick and easy test is to change out the Idle Air Bleeds (idle feed jet) to give it more fuel (idle/cruise) and then retest. But I also feel that the 50 degrees is on the high side with 10:1.
 
I had the same problem. I disconnected the vacuum advance and that solved it. A friend showed me how to test it by increasing rpm slowly in neutral and see if it started to break up, if so it is too much advance. That is exactly what mine did.
 
My 10.5 CR 408 avatar car has too much advance with the vacuum hooked up too. About 52-ish total (34 full mechanical). Need to do something about that this year...too lazy to fix it in past years so I've just run without it hooked up. Wasted fuel when I drive it on the street.
 
“If I unhook the va it almost goes away”
What does “almost” mean? Either it does or it doesn’t. If it does, limit the amount of va. If it doesn’t go away it’s lean at cruise. Possibly a combination of both things going on.
 
@aaronk785
Coming off cruise and loading it hard, thennnn 50 degrees at cruise IS too much.
If it's surging at cruise, its lean..."lean surge" Go up 2 jets primary and secondary. Reset the power vakve too.
I read your opening post wrong because I'm in a hurry 'busy af'...
I apologize. It's the classic re jet for the larger cid. I went from 72 to 75 pri and from 81 to 83's sec.
 
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Thanks everyone. Got some good ideas. I will start with the timing and move to the carb if needed.
 
It is not the timing.....

Sure, reducing timing will 'fix' the problem but you will be making the engine less efficient.
50* at cruise is not excessive for a long duration cam. Long duration cams require more timing at idle, cruise & lower speeds because the increased overlap dilutes the A/F mixture which causes two problems: leanness & more time for the mixture to burn as completely as it can.
Richening the cruise mixture slightly will fix the problem & require less throttle opening [ more efficient ] for cruising.
 
It is not the timing.....

Sure, reducing timing will 'fix' the problem but you will be making the engine less efficient.
50* at cruise is not excessive for a long duration cam. Long duration cams require more timing at idle, cruise & lower speeds because the increased overlap dilutes the A/F mixture which causes two problems: leanness & more time for the mixture to burn as completely as it can.
Richening the cruise mixture slightly will fix the problem & require less throttle opening [ more efficient ] for cruising.
How do you know? Your toilet doesn't even flush the right way. lol
 
I agree with Bewy, in both posts 3 and 12;
My 11/1, alloy-headed 367/4speed, likes more than 46* at 65=2250 for cruising; and up to 60* at 65=2800. This was about the same, with all three cams that I have run in it; from [email protected] to [email protected]. The trick I used, to fire the lean cruise, is to install a hi-amperage coil.
>You should be running a PCV system; I use it as part of my Idle-Air bypass. Your cam will want a lot of bypass air at idle. This will likely make it go lean with applied throttle and rpm. You gotta fix that.
>If you are running a Multi-Strike, they switch over to single-Strike at about 3000. IDK what happens if you cruise on the switchover; try cruising at say 2900 rpm.

>Here's how you can tell how much cruise timing that you should entertain:
1) during this test, you will try to maintain your cruise rpm by adjusting the throttle. If there is a V-can installed then hook it up. You say 3000, so rev it up to 3000!
2) Leave the timing lite in the tool box. Without any regard to the actual timing; just pull a little advance in, and return the rpm to 3000. Then pull a lil more in, and return the rpm to 3000.
3) keep doing this until more timing produces EITHER;
a) no more rpm, or
b) a loss of rpm. If this happens, take a lil timing out.
4) NOW, you can put the timing lite on her and check the timing at 3000rpm.
5) whatever you get, subtract THREE degrees, and write the number down. This final number is your target cruise timing.
6) put the timing back to your start point, and return the V-can's status.

>For reference only, here is my curve;
.78degree per 100 rpm, beginning at around 900, and ending at 3400, for a total of 20 degrees.
The initial on mine is 14*.
I run a ported V-can that is modified to deliver 22*, ASAP.
If you add that up it only totals 56* @3400, lol.... but I cruise at 2250 in overdrive. Which is 14 initial plus 10.5 mechanical plus 22 vacuum =46.5.. This is NOT ENOUGH for optimum fuel mileage, so I installed a dash-mounted, dial-back, timing module with an adjustable range of 15 degrees. I set it in such a way as to allow 6 additional degrees for cruising; so 46.5 plus 6 equals 52.5.. This is still not optimum for long-distance touring, but there's up to 9 more in that module.

>BTW-1
>If you try to run more than about 18* at idle, I can almost guarantee you that your throttle will not be up the Transfer slot far enough, and your mixture screws will be too far open, to compensate for the lack of fuel coming from the transfers.
>If you try to run the Vcan off manifold vacuum AND in conjunction with 18*plus initial, for something like 31* plus at idle; I guarantee you that the transfers are too far closed. Furthermore; I don't think you can get enough fuel out of the mixture screws to make this idle decently AND,
this situation usually creates a fairly substantial tip-in sag, that is usually not possible to cover with pump-shot. And as soon as the engine gets over the sag, it goes pig-rich from the wide-open mixture screws.
Reset the mixture screws to in the middle of their range, and supply the missing idle-fuel from the transfers. Then reduce the idle-speed by subtracting timing. Bewy mentioned this when he said to reset your T-slot exposure to .040, which is underneath the primary throttle blades.

>When I ran that 249* cam, my 750DP ran best with the Secondaries closed up tight,(but not sticking) and the Primary throttles both drilled with one hole each, on the T-slot side, of 3/32 to 7/64 inch. These holes have the advantage of reducing airflow with increasing throttle, to better control the AFR when on the primaries. Whereas cracked secondaries IMO are a less desirable way, and in my combo instantly ran worse with no solution.
The 223 cam did not require any Bypass air, so I soldered the holes shut.
The 230 cam is more or less ok with no Bypass air, but she seems ok with 1/16 holes, one in each primary blade. Any more is worse.

>BTW-2
Now that you have your cruise-timing figured out, here's how you figure the cruise-fueling; this is for a NON-metering rod type carb :
1) set the mixture screws into the center of their range.
2) Rev it up to 3000rpm and fix the the throttle there.
3) Screw the mixture screws in, until the rpm begins to drop, then back them up rich 1/4 turn; this is your starting point.
4) if the rpm does not drop, the circuit is already too rich.
5) if the mixture screws need to be enrichened beyond the center-point, then the circuit is already lean
6) fix it. this usually involves changing the air-bleeds, but could include changing the WET fuel level, or the minimum coolant temperature, or the Inlet air temp.

>BTW-3
What we are doing here is determining a starting point. Right now; the car is stationary with the hood open, and the engine is NOT seeing the same conditions as when actually cruising with the filter house on and the hood closed. So; the carb may have to be tweaked as time goes by.

BTW-4
if you have a drop-base filter house, I have no experience with those except to say that it is possible for the bowl-vent, to get up too close to the lid, and mess up the signal to the bowl, which messes everything up.

edited for grammar, spelling, and clarity.

Happy HotRodding
 
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Rusty,
I am working on the toilet situation.....

All jokes aside, I doubt anybody would call a 254/260 @ 050 cam in a 408 engine 'short cammed'.
So here is a comment from somebody better known than me:
' The optimum idle advance is typically 35-40* for a short cammed street engine & [ though not commonly realized ] as much as 50* for a street/strip engine'.
- The above comment comes from David Vizard, p. 30 of his Holley book.
- Hmm, talking about timing in a carb book. And, he does it more than once throughout this book, p. 47: ' With some lean burn tests, the timing for 60 mph cruise is as far advanced as 55*.
- The fact that the carb in this case was just 'bolted on' with such a big cam is another reason to suspect the idle cct needs richening.
 
Lets take a moment to consider what a "miss" at 3000 rpm could be.
For some reason the fire either went out, came late to the party, or never got started in the first place.... right?
You can tell which, by the severity of the "miss".
Why this happens is no mystery.
This happens if/when, the fire didn't go the way it should.

Why it didn't go the way it should, can only be for a few reasons. It could be because;
1) the spark is too cold (not the plugs heat range) rather the spark is just too weak to light and maintain a decent sized flame-kernal, and so, as time passes the kernal sputters and dies, with the majority of the fuel going out the tailpipe unburned. This can be band-aided with a multi-strike that just keeps banging away over and over. The thing about this is that, none of the sparks following the First Strike are timed right. So then, as your rpm exits the Multi-strike zone, now you are back to a standard CDI triggered kettering-type ignition. And if you are using an E-core coil, they are almost notoriously under-amped.
2) the above happens regularly if the mixture is too lean. In this case, the fuel molecules may be too far apart to maintain the flame, and so the power output becomes lower than the cylinders around it..
3) the above also happens if the AFR is too rich AND the mixture is NOT properly atomized. In this case, the larger molecules just get ignored.
4) in both instances, this situation can be aggravated by the shape, size, and temperature of the chamber, and can be severely aggravated by the headers, and most especially by the lack there-of.
5) the solution to most of this crap, is to run a hi-amperage coil, and to start the flame-kernal earlier, so that the fire has more time find fuel to burn, before the piston gets to be too far down the cylinder.
Cuz I mean think about it
For optimum energy transfer from the pressure of the expanding gasses to the crank, aka, peak cylinder pressure, the pressure needs to occur at or near a specific crank position. All your timing systems are designed to hit this position, as often as possible, under the most trying circumstances. This crank-position is said to be 25 to 28 degrees AFTER TDC. I showed you how to find it in a previous post.
Did you catch the word AFTER?
At this crank position, the piston is already running away from TDC, and so if the fire is late to the game, it manifests as a miss because the power is down on that cylinder. If all cylinders are down equally, then you wouldn't feel it, but your fuel-economy would take the hit.
So then, when cruising, it MAY take 45 to 55 degrees of advance to get ALL the fuel molecules oxidized, at the correct time.
All of this gets aggravated by;
a dome in the chamber, acting like a dam,
a large open-chamber design with lots of surface area for the fuel to stick to, including a dish in the piston or the crowns being below the deck, or aluminum chambers sucking the heat out, or
alack of squish to homogenize the mixture, or
spark plugs too far away, or gapped too large for the coil's power, or
The carb's inability on the cruise circuit to supply the finely-atomized fuel, or
the fuel sticking to the relatively cold intake manifold runners, or the plenum, then tearing off in large patches, too heavy to burn, or
the overlap cycle, with headers, being particularly aggressive, or if no headers, then exhaust gases pushing up into the plenum on the overlap cycle, messing with the AFR. The carb doesn't care which way the air is going, if it is going past the transfers and idle discharge potrs, in any direction, she dumps fuel into it. The overlap is in charge of the beginning of the intake stroke. So if log-manifolds are used on a 250* @.050 cam which is gonna be well over 300/310 from seat to seat, and the overlap from .008 to .008 tappet rise is likely to be over 80/85 degrees ..... this is plenty of time for log-manifolds to drive EGR up into the intake.... plenty of time.
>and finally, the wildcard, is detonation, or in this case, more likely would be Pre-Ignition. This is when the fire starts waaaaay to early, and the rapid rise in cylinder pressure drives the piston back down the way it came, and you feel it as a loss of power, aka, "a miss". Now, pre-ignition can be a bit of a mystery, as to why it occurs but the fact of it can usually be traced to, something in the chamber being hot enough to light the mixture before it's time. It could be the plug, or the edge of the cylinder protruding into the chamber, or the fire-ring, or waaay too much compression for the gas , or a faulty octane-rating, or some particularly hot or glowing item in the chamber, or some combination of these.
This has to traced and eliminated else the engine can destroy itself when detonation moves in behind it.

In any case, the point is that, cruise timing is sorta critical. and
I can say with confidence,that
IF your engine is NOT sick,
AND if you have a decent coil and the right timing,
THEN, you can cruise with a pretty wide range of AFRs ,
and never experience a miss.

but you know, if one runner is sucking air, none of this matters.........

I once installed a modded for fuel-economy Holley 1850 on my 367, for a specific 10 hour cruise, and was amazed at the fuel-economy it achieved. But, I could vary the timing, on the fly, from the driver's seat, with the adjustable timing module, so it was always exactly right. As it got leaner, it required more throttle to get the required fuel to maintain speed..... and more and more timing. Eventually it could not make enough power on the cruise circuit to maintain speed, and no amount of additional timing could find it. But;
not once did it misfire.
I run a pretty basic ignition system. Just an old yellow sq-top Accel Super-Coil.
It gets battery power from a relay, turned on by the ignition switch, and is triggered by the Opto-Timer's internal amp. That coil is simply amazing, especially for the money it cost me. It was new in 2002.
 
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