MPG build 360

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Swinger 71

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Hi all just sharing my engine build and setup going into my 1971 dart swinger
This is my MPG build 1973 360 .40 over
302 cast heads shaved down .20
Cam is stock grind 340 specs
Carb will be 650cfm eldebrock
Intake still deciding on a eldebrock street master or rpm performer
Transmission 1968 904a stock
And rear end im looking for a 8.25 open end 2.76-2.94 gearing

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Nice build, if you keep your foot out of it mileage should be decent. 65'
 
the 2.94 gear may get better mileage with the 340 cam.
....the type of build a lot of guys would enjoy but don't know it.
 
I would consider a newer 904 with lock up converter. A500 even better.
 
20 mpg should be no issue with a good tune and decent height rear tire 26.5" or taller at 60-65 MPH

If you can run a lock up or OD trans even better MPG
 
Not the RPM for mileage, especially with sub 3 gearing. Use a factory intake or Streetmaster & it will be happy days....
 
I would like the Factory 340 or Eddy RPM over that single plane, along with a Thermoquad. Also, there are better camshaft choices. The 340 cam is good, but there are more modern grinds that might work better.
 
I ran a stock ‘79 - 360 in a heavy-ish B body, specifically a ‘79 Magnum w/a 904 & 2.76 gears on 235/60/15’s. Stock camshaft. Then I added a OEM iron 4bbl. intake and a 600 AFB, ignition was a MSD, junk yard distributor, dual exhaust @ 2-1/4 off of the stock manifolds, the air cleaner was a ‘72 trap door air cleaner.
At ye time, yearly inspectors would have to visually see a catalyst on the vehicle. I’m had 2 high flow cats.

The best I got was 20 on the Hwy. It was probably possible to get a tic more mileage with modifications to the distributor that I didn’t do.


Not a fan of the following;

I don’t think that 340 cam is going to do you any favors.

Not a fan of the 302 heads up top but if you keep reporting back on how it does, I’d be thankful for the info.

The intake choice is off base IMO. I’d seriously look for ether the OEM or a Performer.

Thoughts and advice;

As mentioned above, look into o a lock up converter or an overdrive. An OD trans would be an excellent addition.

The 650 carb is fine. The TQ flag wavers have a point to that carbs smaller primary side and it’s double ring booster is a plus. I don’t suggest a change though. After all, you already have the 650 right? I also caution on a TQ use. Tuning parts are a PIA to find/get and the carb itself has to be a rock solid unit. When you do have a good and tight TQ, there excellent carbs.

Do so;

Get into the distributor! There’s power and mileage there.
Use a high energy multi spark ignition.
Dual exhaust or a generous sized single pipe.
2/76 gear ratio.

Good luck! Have fun!
 
I should of used the OEM manifold off my uncles 360 That and the 308 heads and msd ignition system oh well . I’m just using what available to me and my local junkyard but I do believe your right about the ignition system. My goal is a high torque at low rpm and that why I went with the 302 heads and the street master or rpm intake. High velocity charge with small intake ports with an over sized piston diameter should be really snappy imo .
now I’m not sure what temp spark plugs I should run in this thing any suggestions?
Also would a carb spacer be beneficial?

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Magnum head ports on a 360 will keep velocity up in low rpms just fine, but give you a bunch more on the top end. Mileage would also be the same or maybe even better than the 302 heads.

Flow comparison is about 155cfm @.500 lift for 302, and about 210 cfm at .500 with the magnum head with factory ports and valve jobs on both.
 
Make sure you are using a well set up vacuum advance system with the right curve on the distributor.

Any changes that can increase torque at a lower rpm will help you keep your foot out of the pedal. Higher compression, good exhaust system, very good tune in the carb and advance curves.

To that end, I wouldn't even consider a single plane intake of any sort. Stock intake or a performer/performer rpm.

Headers will make a lot more torque at low and midrange rpms over any factory manifolds.

Get a wideband air fuel gage and tune idle, part throttle, and steady cruise for as lean as you can get it while running smoothly. This can be a balancing act between idle quality and fuel enrichment on tip in, you will have to play with accelerator pump quite a bit to make is all run right. If you tune for smoothest idle quality using the old school vacuum gage approach, it will be very rich at idle. Yes it will run smoother and sound better but it'll burn a lot more fuel, and make you smell like exhaust every time you drive.

Idle and cruise advance should be pretty high with the vac advance hooked up.
 
I should have used the OEM manifold off my uncles 360 That and the 308 heads and msd ignition system oh well .
Yes, IMO. I do t see the street master as a plus and the
RPM-AG may be OK. I don’t see the reason for it with its design for the larger engines, and the larger ports, crashing air and fuel into the smaller head port window of a 302 head.


I’m just using what available to me and my local junkyard but I do believe you’re right about the ignition system. My goal is a high torque at low rpm and that why I went with the 302 heads and the street master or rpm intake.

At low RPM, the heads will be OK. I don’t currently see the point of a smaller valve. The velocity thing is minor. Helpful yes but not a huge thing.

now I’m not sure what temp spark plugs I should run in this thing any suggestions?
Stock
Also would a carb spacer be beneficial


MAYBE, it’s a try and see thing.
 
I run a 360LA in my Challenger, 2.76 open rear gear with a 727 darn near stock converter. I wanted decent power and good highway mileage as everything here is a 45+ minute drive to get to outside of downtown.

I would go with a good dual plane intake. I chose the Performer RPM air gap paired with a 625 Holley Street Demon carb. Smaller primaries so excellent throttle response but opens up nicely when you get on the fun pedal.

Headers.. even an inexpensive set of shorty's is better than the stock logs.. and dual exhaust.

I put a decent set of Promaxx aluminum heads on mine planning to stroke it later down the road. But the advise above is solid.. a decent set of stockish heads mildly worked can get you where you want to be.

I use an aftermarket HEI (GM knock off) ignition with Petronix III multi spark module and coil.. excellent results and not a huge $$ investment. Will clean up your ignition a LOT.. I highly recommend.

Cam, converter and RE gear need to work together. I relied on my local transmission shop for recommendations when I had mine rebuilt. My cam is pretty mild even with the extra .030 valve lift with 1.6 ratio roller rockers. Don't need to go too crazy to get good torque and a liveable amount of HP.

I'm probably gettin 16 to 18'ish MPG and I tend to be a tad heavier on the fun pedal. More conservative driving could probably get me closer to 20. Let us know what you decide and what the result is! All useful data.

Oh.. and I do not use a carb spacer. Tried up to 1" and the throttle response was worse. Maybe better at WOT but that was not what I was looking for.
 
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Screw the shorty headers, the reason you use full length header ls is because the long tubes make torque and shorty headers aren’t worth jack on our rides. There fine for a high boy if need be but after that, worthless!!!!!!!!!

The best fitting and thickest flange header I have used are the Summit headers. I won’t go back to Hooker anytime soon and it’ll probably be in dire need, like a gun to my head before I use them again along with a host of other thin flanged (5/16 garbage) crap fitting headers.

Use header bolts a 1/4 inch longer.
These bad boys below.

image.jpg
 
@RustyRatRod is absolutely correct. Shorty headers are worthless. And x2 on the summit headers they're pretty decent.
 
Screw the shorty headers, the reason you use full length header ls is because the long tubes make torque and shorty headers aren’t worth jack on our rides. There fine for a high boy if need be but after that, worthless!!!!!!!!!

The best fitting and thickest flange header I have used are the Summit headers. I won’t go back to Hooker anytime soon and it’ll probably be in dire need, like a gun to my head before I use them again along with a host of other thin flanged (5/16 garbage) crap fitting headers.

Use header bolts a 1/4 inch longer.
These bad boys below.

View attachment 1716017069
To each their own. Shorty's are better than stock logs all week long and twice on Sunday. If he wants the "fun" of installing and doing maintenance around longtubes for the performance.. more power to him. Myself.. I like the skin right where it is currently on my knuckles, having no ground clearance/steering clearance issues and easily being able to get spark plugs and starters in and out of the car.
 
Stock 340 cam? For mpg? not gonna happen
Mileage in overdrive is likely to be worse than in direct; that cam has to be reving to slam the door on reversion, and for fuel economy, should maybe possibly, not have long-tubes, depending on the cruise rpm.
268/276/114
in at 110 (4* advanced) the Ica is 64* which reduces your effective stroke to 2.79 inches. This is all you are left with to make cylinder pressure with. But that means your piston is already .79 inch up from the bottom (with the intake valve still at ~.012 off the seat)
This is all fine with the engine over 3600rpm.
but cruising under 2400, two things will be happening, neither of them any good for fuel economy.
Firstly, the piston, rising on the compression stroke, will be trying to send some of it's just-inducted A/F mixture back up into the intake. The slower it revs the easier this gets for her. This, at idle, messes up the plenum-action and reduces the vacuum signal, so you gotta mess with the carb, and then the cruise mixture takes a dive.
Secondly, that cam has a modest 44* of overlap., which is the time when both valves are slightly open between the end of the exhaust stroke and the beginning of the intake. Long tube headers are designed to work with this period by helping the A/F mixture move towards and into the combustion chamber.... before the piston actually starts working at that same job. That's all fine after 3600 or so.
But at lower rpms like cruise rpm, those headers are gonna pull on the plenum and suck a portion of that mixture right across the top of the piston and out the tailpipe it goes.
But there is a third problem with a low cruise rpm;
Under 2200 rpm it is nearly impossible to give the engine enough cruise-timing, and still keep the power-timing in check, with the factory type distributor. At 2200rpm your engine might want 56 or more degrees of timing to get all the mixture burned before the exhaust valve opens. This is as good as impossible to make. Even if you lock the distributor at 36*, you will still need 20* more from the vacuum advance system, which can be done..... but you better have 1) the right combination of dynamic compression and knock-resistance for that locked distributor, and about a 3500TC so as to get the engine up over the hump of being prone to detonation.
How much is it worth, in terms of fuel mileage, to get the timing up there?
IDK, but I can guess at least 2mpg, maybeeven up to 4, it depends on how bad your current timing curve is. Typically, from the factory, the timing mightabin 28* at cruise rpm of 65=3100 with 3.23s and typically short tires. That's barely half of what she needs. You can probably get away with power-timing of 1* per 100rpm , and starting at 16*@1200, that will get you 26* at 2200 for power timing, and you can mod your Vcan to about 22*, so a total of 48*. And so that's how that goes. So; the lower the rpm the worse it gets. You will lose economy faster with not enough timing than what you will lose with increasing rpm. The sweetspot is around 2200 to 2400.
Your Iron-headed 360 with the factory 340cam, will not like 2.76s I can almost guarantee it; and 2.94s are only 6.5% better. However with 2.94s the rpm is already around 65=2500 with 27" tires and 3%TC slip, so you are good there. For fuel-economy, you want the convertor to not be slipping too badly at cruise rpm, I mean unless you have a lock-up, you are always gonna have some slip.
But there is a Fourth problem with this cam and this is likely the big economy killer. In at 110* the power cycle ends at is 76*BBDC with the exhaust valve already ~.012 off the seat. This cycle is only 104* long. So there will be a lot of pressure going right out the exhaust when that valve pops open. And even worse, because you cannot start the fire early enough, this exhaust will not be finished burning in the chamber. So then, all that energy that could have been used to propel your car, is instead, heating up your exhaust, on it's way out the tailpipe.
But hey, it could be worse; you mighta picked the 292 cam, lol.

Now, as far as that 340 cam and it's modest 44* of overlap is concerned, this is actually a step in the right direction. with the factory manifolds killing the overlap cycle, they did reasonably well on gas. If you switched to a 110 Lsa, it could be a lot worse.
However, the thing to remember is that this ICA spec of 64* is at .008 tappet-rise so, the intake valves by the math are still open at .012. It's gonna be a long time before the intake valves actually close, and the compression cycle begins; I'm gonna guess that the pistons will be close to half way up, and that really sucks in producing pressure, which makes heat, which builds the torque, which moves your car.
For your application as regards low-rpm fuel-economy, the SPECS of this cam are just wrong. I'm not saying the cam is no good, cuz they make power. But they also suck gas.
You need a cam that slams the intakes closed sooner, OR,
you need to cruise this one at a lil higher than 2400rpm.
With 2.94s hitting 65=2450 @3% slip, this is as good as it gets. Now you just gotta get the cruise-timing up to where it needs to be.

And finally, I'm not trying to rain on your parade. I already made all these mistakes, and know what NOT to do. So
Happy HotRodding
 
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