MS3 Pro Sequential Injection + Coil near plug conversion thread

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Can you put a "handle" on how much JUST the MS part of this cost, IE the MS, the harness and software, ignoring sensors and injectors you bought extra?

You say "the manual" but the problem I had with the "lower" MS stuff is that the "manual" is scattered all over the internet, so to speak.
 
Okay, the MS3 Pro (you can go with the MS3/MS3X expansion board DIY style and save relative to this) is about $1230 delivered to your door. That's the ECU, 8' wiring harness, which is connected on the ECU end, tuning cables, and the software, which does include the VEAL/autotune. Link to the ECU: http://www.ms3pro.com/

The manual is a PDF file for it. Here's the manual: [ame]http://www.ms3pro.com/_downloads/ms3pro_manual_1.4.0.pdf[/ame]
 
This thread is better than the burrito I had for lunch! I will follow...;-)
 
goldduster318 said:
Okay, the MS3 Pro (you can go with the MS3/MS3X expansion board DIY style and save relative to this) is about $1230 delivered to your door. That's the ECU, 8' wiring harness, which is connected on the ECU end, tuning cables, and the software, which does include the VEAL/autotune.
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Well that is not a bunch cheaper than the Holley HP, juz sayin


Thanks for the manual. Just a note. The software on this site has gone nuts. If you want to post a link to a document, you must remove the "front" of the link otherwise the damn thing will try and open. Very very annoying

ms3pro.com/_downloads/ms3pro_manual_1.4.0.pdf

In my case I upgraded my old Commander 950 to HP. For roughly that same price I got the plug and play Holley harness, the ECU and software, and a couple of extra sensors. They really weren't needed as the ones in the 950 were the same.
 
67Dart273 said:
Well that is not a bunch cheaper than the Holley HP, juz sayin


Thanks for the manual. Just a note. The software on this site has gone nuts. If you want to post a link to a document, you must remove the "front" of the link otherwise the damn thing will try and open. Very very annoying

ms3pro.com/_downloads/ms3pro_manual_1.4.0.pdf

In my case I upgraded my old Commander 950 to HP. For roughly that same price I got the plug and play Holley harness, the ECU and software, and a couple of extra sensors. They really weren't needed as the ones in the 950 were the same.
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Well, I had looked into that...The Holley HP computer is 1,108.95 @ summit and then I would have needed the main computer harness (unterminated) which is $304.95 and an injector harness for $111.95. So that's $1525.95 and I would have only ended up with about $50 more worth of plugs than I already had. So, a delta of about $200 on an already expensive project.

Also, they are really restrictive on hardware...Its really unclear if the 36-1 wheel with VR sensor is even supported, and if they'd support the factory cam sensor for the '92-'03 magnum engines I am using. The 36-1 is easy to get custom wheels made, mine was $70 delivered and all I had to do was weld it to the crank pulley. The ranger crank sensor is cheap and easy to get (3.0 OHV vulcan engines are everywhere) and I paid a massive $10 for the magnum engine distributor.

I knew megasquirt 3 supported everything that I needed so that was the main reason to go there. Also, there's a ton of support available...not just a company's tech line. It really just depends on what you're looking for. Nothing's really a totally plug and play app for a SBM with SMPI and Coil near plug.
 
So I've been driving the car around with the auto tune on - it can really do some amazing work on making the car run better and better. In order for it to work right, you need to have your air fuel targets and ignition timing worked out...which I don't completely have.

The next time I will drive it, I'm going to run it with a timing curve that's a lot like I used to run with the carburetor and we'll see how that goes. Until now I was running with something pretty close to the default tables which didn't have too much over 33 degrees at any time.

I have the closed loop idle turned on and I was having some serious issues with getting the idle down slow enough, despite having closed loop idle turned on. I ended up figuring out that the tiny screw for the secondary throttle blades were too far open and the IAC was completely shut. Once I did that it fixed it but I had to bump the timing and run auto tune at the low RPMs. Now it seems to idle pretty well, and consistently.

I'm going to look hard into my AFR tables to try to optimize them a little bit more. In any case it's already driving pretty well, and that's just with about an hour of driving on it. I might have to mess with the acceleration enrichment a bit but the extra timing may remove that issue entirely.
 
I bet the MS2 firing a 4bbl TB batch like the FAST carb looking thing would put you under $400. It all depends on what you want to buy and what you want to make. TB EFI is not the best but is a good start.
 
I'm honestly not sure that the TBI setups are really that great for a performance car. If it's just a driver, sure. I think you'd want to spend the money for an in-tank fuel pump and return fuel system regardless of the actual injection system.
 
TBI offers control over the A/f ratio across the board only, helpful for turbo or power adders. Also will get a handle on pig rich "hot rod" carbs and long duration cams. Mate that to MSnS's ignition control and you can control another variable. Carbs work, TB EFI works better, MPFI works best short of direct injection which is not a retrofit.
 
batch firing 8 (4 pairs) injectors with a microsquirt is another cheaper initial investment option ($370 ecu/harness). unless you're trying to max mpg cruise with some giant injectors, batch firing doesn't have any real negatives. it doesnt have as many extra inputs/outputs and ms3, but probably more than you need for a carb retrofit.
 
goldduster318 said:
I'm honestly not sure that the TBI setups are really that great for a performance car. .
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I think most of the bad rap for TBI came from the older systems. Look at some of the race stuff, uses "standoff" injectors which are in essence "TBI"



I may have asked, does the MS3 and MSII use the same software?
 
67Dart273 said:
I think most of the bad rap for TBI came from the older systems. Look at some of the race stuff, uses "standoff" injectors which are in essence "TBI"

I may have asked, does the MS3 and MSII use the same software?
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Injectors at the TBI are a disadvantage at throttle tip-in compared to near valve port injection. With TBI, additional fuel is proceeded by the mix already in the runners and plenum. While large tip-in enrichment helps some, much of the extra fuel is wasted by wetting the intake surfaces, resulting in less control of enrichment decay. Dyno numbers may be as good, but drive ability and fuel economy suffers.

MS2 and MS3 have different microcontrollers and embedded firmware. I am not sure about the PC based tuning software.
 
67Dart273 said:
I think most of the bad rap for TBI came from the older systems. Look at some of the race stuff, uses "standoff" injectors which are in essence "TBI"



I may have asked, does the MS3 and MSII use the same software?
Click to expand...

All current megasquirt stuff uses Tunerstudio MS. It just changes a little depending on what your controller can actually enable. I have pretty much everything on at the same time.
 
TB can be used for race as most of the time the car is running at pretty high revs ( look at an F1, the injectors are 6" up the tunnel ram) but off idle as stated will be 'dirty'. Also mpfi is cleaner at idle, it was more of an emissions issue than performance. Remember the ' nickle theory': any savings you can generate will ge multiplied by a factir of how many you produce, like hundreds of thousands in a car makers world. 2 tbi injectors are cheaper than 8.
 
pishta said:
TB can be used for race as most of the time the car is running at pretty high revs ( look at an F1, the injectors are 6" up the tunnel ram) but off idle as stated will be 'dirty'. Also mpfi is cleaner at idle, it was more of an emissions issue than performance. Remember the ' nickle theory': any savings you can generate will ge multiplied by a factir of how many you produce, like hundreds of thousands in a car makers world. 2 tbi injectors are cheaper than 8.
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There's a lot of examples of basically the same engine going from Carb to TBI to MPFI to SFI. At each jump the gas mileage improves, the idle quality improves, and the power improves (to a point), and typically the emissions improve. A particularly good example is the GM 60 degree V6. 2.8L Carb was 110hp, TBI was 120hp, MPFI, 130hp. They then switched to an MPFI 3.1L, which was 140hp, and the SFI one was 160hp.

My experience here is that having the manifold be dry flow and having SFI really smoothed the idle and it can idle pretty lean for a highly modified 340. It wouldn't idle worth a crap with the AFR in the 14's with a carb and it easily does it now. Also instantaneous throttle response.
 
goldduster318 said:
There's a lot of examples of basically the same engine going from Carb to TBI to MPFI to SFI. At each jump the gas mileage improves, the idle quality improves, and the power improves (to a point), and typically the emissions improve. A particularly good example is the GM 60 degree V6. 2.8L Carb was 110hp, TBI was 120hp, MPFI, 130hp. They then switched to an MPFI 3.1L, which was 140hp, and the SFI one was 160hp.

My experience here is that having the manifold be dry flow and having SFI really smoothed the idle and it can idle pretty lean for a highly modified 340. It wouldn't idle worth a crap with the AFR in the 14's with a carb and it easily does it now. Also instantaneous throttle response.
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Very cool upgrade......have you run this beast at the track yet?
 
replicaracer43 said:
Very cool upgrade......have you run this beast at the track yet?
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I haven't. I'm unsure when I'll be able to. I've been working on some nagging issues with some strange oscillations in RPM on initial start and at some steady state load. It's cold here in MI so it's getting to be more difficult to work on the tune. I've been working with people on the Megasquirt site and I think the advice I've gotten so far was pretty good.
 
Bucks70RT said:
How is this project going? Have you thawed out yet?
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I'm actually moving to a new house so I haven't spent a ton of time on it. Just made a 35 mile drive to the new house Saturday and it ran very well. Still playing with the IAC settings, and getting ready to turn on some advanced features like zero fuel during decel.

Amazingly the car has no issue maintaining 70 with a 15.9:1 air fuel ratio...no ping or surge.
 
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Bucks70RT said:
How did you find the trigger wheel position on the crank pulley?
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The code can pretty much cope with any angle, but they want you to do it kind of like they do on an EDIS Ford V8. So you'd shoot for the missing tooth approximately 5 teeth (50 deg) in front of the crank sensor when the crank is at TDC. They cover how to measure it directly. I think mine ended up being something dumb like 63 degrees or whatever. Just as long as you now what it is, you just put that number in the computer (IIRC you set the engine on the missing tooth and read the balancer). It coped fine. Then, I put it in fixed timing mode and checked the actual timing with a light...at which case you can make adjustments to get it right on, and then forget about using a timing light ever again unless you disturb the crank pulley.
 
Stupid photobucket. :mad:

Any updates?

Thinking about going MS3Pro on my Duster instead of the Magnum PCM I had planned to use.
 
The car is running really well...I only have made one change, to an AEM wideband, which almost immediately fixed all the driveability issues.

I've been getting about 13 mpg, used to get about 11.5 with the carb in the same type of driving, but this is short trips and a lot of stomping on it. I can probably further refine my tune to help with that somewhat.
 
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