MSD analog relibility; any ideas?????

-
Bill Dedman

Bill Dedman

bill dedman
Legendary Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
3,987
Reaction score
140
Location
Conway, Arkansas
Any "analog" MSD gurus out there?

I have an MSD Boost Master timing control that is a combination spark retard unit for dialing back the spark when boost occurs in a supercharged or turbocharged engine, AND contains a "module" that replaces the stock (OEM) ecu(?) "orange box" ignition module that my early Mopar came from the factory with.

Although it is manufactured and sold by MSD (part number 5462), it is NOT a "multiple spark discharge" unit like a 6- or 7-AL. It is a conventional "amplifier" that uses the OEM distributor's magnetic signal to fire the plug. It has a dash-mounted knob that allows the driver to retard the spark either one, two, or three degrees for each pound of boost the blower makes. It has a sensor that reads a manifold presssure signal, delivered from the intake manifold to the module via a 1/8"-dia. hose.

I installed mine on my Vortech-blown 360 Dpdge Magnum, along with an Accel Super Coil, #40001, which is a VERY popular aftermarket coil, particularly for street cars. Summit sells a bazillion of 'em...

I wired it all up as per the MSD instructions, and it started and ran fine.... for about 30 minutes. THEN,
It stopped like somebody had turned the key off; NO spark.

I returned the #5462 module to MSD in El Paso, for repairs.

While I was awaiting its return home, I called MSD to see what could have caused such a short life for this $230.00 piece.

The first tech I talked to said, "That #5462 unit KILLED that Accel coil; you can't use that coil with the #5462.

Later that day, I called MSD again, got a different tech who told me, "No, no, no, no, NO! The coill killed the #5462... not the other way around! You can't use that coil with a #5462.

By the way; nowhere in the instructions does it say anything about ANY coil. The implication is that there's no problem using any coil of your choice.

When the #5462 was returned to me ($24.95 repair fee), it said MSD repair services had replaced a burned out transistor. I forget the number...

In the meantime, I have replaced the Accel coil with an MSD "Blaster" coil, which BOTH technicians have agreed is the recommended coil for that #5462 module.

It starts up and runs okay, but I am afraid to get very far from home with it; GUN SHY, now...

One of the techs said my chassis ground was probably at fault.

My (two) batteries are in the trunk. I ran a #2 welding cable from the batteries to the starter (remember, this is a Mopar, and the battery cable connects directly to the starter), and ran a 6-volt (BIG!) ground cable to a sanded-bare spot on the trunk floor, while another identical cable runs from the inner frnder panel to a bare spot on the engine block. This is a unibody car... everything is one piece.

It spins about 500 rpm on the starter with 190 PSI cranking compression.

Does that sound like a bad ground to you?

I am not being smart-***; I am asking. I am woefuly ignorant about electronics, but I have heard that a bad chassis ground will kill a transistor dead....

When this thing died the first time, (the only time, really) I was accelerating pretty hard away from a stoplight, and at about 20mph, it just quit...

Like I said, the total system had no more than 30 minutes running time on it, but had been working flawlessly, up until then.

Any ideas?

DARE I TAKE THIS CAR 10 MILES FROM HOME????

I don't have AAA...

Thanks for any advice or information about what could have caused that catastrophic ignition failure. I didn't mind the $24.95, but, I hated to have to call Bobby Roper to tow me home... not something I'd want to repeat, although he did so, graciously.

Anybody???

I'd call MSD again, but every time I call them I get a different tech and a different answer...
 
It should be easy enough to leave the mopar ECU in place and with a couple of quick connects be able to swap from the MSD box to the mopar box if it were to fail again.

After taking a quick look at the installation instructions I don't believe for a second that the Accel Coil caused the unit to fail. It could have been a manufacturing defect or a faulty component. I wouldn't worry too much about it crapping out again. In a previous life I was a Reliability Engineer and and based on my knowledge of the types of parts used in the analog MSD products this type of product is extremely reliable on the order of 500,000 hrs on average between failures.
 
Dodge Freak (I wish people would use their real names, if only their first name; I hate addressing somebody as a "freak," even if it's his choice!),

Thanks a lot for that link; It worked, but I got it too late to call them today. I definitely will give them a call tomorrow to see if they work on non-6- and 7-AL modulles. This 5462 is an analog unit.

I appreciate the good info!

Bill
 
Yeah, I see what you mean. Heck this is not a adult rated site, ha ha. My first name is Peter, I do use it on the rare times I send a PM.

Dodge Pete...nah...well I do know Speed Freak was used in old ads, so me owning a Dodge thought I go with that.

That place might do better work. MSD does not want to upgrade their 6 boxes. They are 50 state legal and besides, if you need more spark power, buy a different box, MSD believes.

They do like a E-mail before you send them a box, sometimes they have 6 boxes for sale on E-bay. Thats how I found them.
 
Dave,

I do appreciate the quick reply RE this MSD unit problem.

Your comment, "After taking a quick look at the installation instructions I don't believe for a second that the Accel Coil caused the unit to fail." made me laugh, only becuase the TWO MSD techs I talked to couldn't even agree on whether it was the coil that had killed the 5462, or the 5462 that had killed the coil....

I have to tell you, I made SEVEN consecutive phone calls to MSD about how to wire this thing up before I actually DID it (successfully), mainly because they couldn't decide whether my stock Mopar (1974) OEM electronic distributor used "magnetic pickup" or "Hall effect" technology. Every time I called, I got a different tech, and a different answer. I am NOT kidding. The first two told me that I'd have to piggy-back this 5462 on my orange box; the third told me that they were crazy (paaraphrased), and to wire it up like the instructions showed (no orange box), and when I caled back, two days later, I was told that he had quit, after 16 years with the company.

I don't blame him...

I eventually had to call a friend who is a Mopar line tech to find out that Hall effect distributors have THREE WIRES... mine has two, of course, because it's a magnetic pickup unit.

Anyway, I'd BET you're right about the Accel coil being okay, and not being the cause of that transistor's failure in the 5462.

I am concentrating on adding more ground straps... Hope that will preclude more unwanted transistor tragedies.

Thanks a lot for your advice!!!

Since you're an engineer, you might be able to answer this question, while I have your "ear":

My tach is an el-cheapo Summit unit that uses the signal that is picked up on the negative side of the coil.

The "techs" at MSD told me that this 5462 sends 100+ volts to that "minus" coil terminal. I know I heard them right... two of them told me that; something about minimizing "rise time" in the coil.

That doesn't concern me.

This tach has always worked well.

I'm wondering whether the 100+ volts might have a shock for it that it won't survive... so, I haven't hooked it up... yet.

Do you have any thoughts on that?

If you do, I'd appreciate your opinion.

Thanks if you do; thanks if you don't.

~I~ have NO CLUE... us usual.

Bill

Bill, in Conway, AR.
 
No problem, Peter...

MY problem is that I was born in the first half of the LAST CENTURY.... and have been an "adult" way too long... LOL! It's starting to show. :(

Gettin' stodgy in my old age...

I will absolutely give them a call, tomorrow, because if there is ANY WAY POSSIBLE, I don't ever want to have to talk to the "techs" at MSD again...

They're nice guys... but most of them seem to have no idea what they're talking about... at least, the ones I talked to (and, I talked to several.)

Ninety-five percent of their conversations are probably about 6- and 7-AL units; my Boost Master that failed is NOTHING like a "real" MSD unit. They probably don't get a lot of training on those..

Thanks again for the link!!!

Bill
 
Bill Dedman said:
My tach is an el-cheapo Summit unit that uses the signal that is picked up on the negative side of the coil.

The "techs" at MSD told me that this 5462 sends 100+ volts to that "minus" coil terminal. I know I heard them right... two of them told me that; something about minimizing "rise time" in the coil.

That doesn't concern me.

This tach has always worked well.

I'm wondering whether the 100+ volts might have a shock for it that it won't survive... so, I haven't hooked it up... yet.

Do you have any thoughts on that?

If you do, I'd appreciate your opinion.
Click to expand...

Bill,

Another MSD support tech smoking Crack!

Notice the instructions tell you to get power for the BTM from the + side of the coil ?

If the unit was outputting 100+ volts it would be fed back into the rest of the cars electrical system and burn out the car's electrical system. It's only the capacitive discharge systems (6A, 7A, etc) that use a high voltage output into the coil to cause a spark on the rising edge of the pulse.

Based on the way the unit is connected it is operating as an inductive system just like the mopar ecu. Current is flowing through the coil out the orange wire of the BTM to ground through the BTM. The BTM will disrupt the current flow by opening the ground path causing the magnetic filed in the coil to collapse inducing a potential on the secondary windings of the coil.

The circuitry in the BTM is looking at the rate at which it receives pulses from the magnetic pick up and will adjust the point it opens the ground path to cause the timing to be retarded.

FWIW, I was having trouble getting the 6A unit I have to trigger directly off the magnetic pick-up. A couple of calls to the MSD tech line was of no help but; I did sign up for there message board and there was lots of useful help there including a MSD tech that does know his stuff.
 
Dave,
Thanks for the enlightened response.

Your comment, "If the unit was outputting 100+ volts it would be fed back into the rest of the cars electrical system and burn out the car's electrical system. It's only the capacitive discharge systems (6A, 7A, etc) that use a high voltage output into the coil to cause a spark on the rising edge of the pulse." was apparently in reference to the red wire that connects the 5462 to the POSITIVE side of the coil.

This MSD tech told me that the 100+ volts is sent throught the ORANGE wirre, from the module to the MINUS terminal of the coil. I guess I didn't make that clear.

As such, could it still, as you said, " be fed back into the rest of the car's electrical system and burn out the car's electrical system."????

Also, how would the MSD 5462 get the voltage from 12, up to 100+?

Regardless of the wiring, I am certainly ready and more than willing to take your advice and info on this subject; I have gotten nothing but, smoke, mirriors, and self-contradictory B.S. from MSD....

Butm how about this orange wire voltage???

Is it even possible that it could be that high(100+ volts)?????????????

I guess it should be safe to hook up that tach-signal wire, now.... I hope.

Thanks also for the MSD forum info. I'll try that out....

Have a good weekend!!!


Bill
 
Seems like the MSD tech is confusing your BTM ignition with one of the capacitive discharge units like a 6A or 7A. The wiring on those uses an orange wire connected to the positive of the coil (with no other wires connected toi the coil + ) and a black wire connected to the -.

If it worked as he suggested and the orange wire connected to the - of coil and the cars electrical system connected to the + as well as the power for the BTM that 100+ volt output would still burn up the cars electrical system and and BTM too.

Getting the 12 volts up to 100 volts is quite easy. Just like the coil, you put 12 voilts on the primary windings then let the field collapse and you induce a voltage on the secondaries that is equalt to the turns ratio of the coil. Remember the coil is putting out to the plug anywhere from 15,000 to 45,000 volts from the 12 electrical system.

The orange wire on your BTM has no output. It is a switched path to ground. It works just like the mopar electronic igntion or a set of points for that matter with the added ability not just trigger off the pulse from the magnetic pick-up or points opening but to adapt when it triggers to retard the timing.
 
Dave,

That was a crystal-clear explanation that even ~I~ had no trouble understanding.

Can you see why I was totally confused by this 100 volts/MSD B.S???

I know JUST enough to get into trouble... and, not nearly enough to get out.

Thanks loads for the easy-to-understand rundown on the whys and wherefores of how this thing works. I am much better equipped to deal with it, now.

I really DO appreciate the time you took to write that. Makes MY life a lot easier, now... WHEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!=P~


Bill
 
Dave, I hooked my el-cheapo Summit tach up to the analog MSD "Blaster" coil and it works great... exactly like you said it would.

Thanks a lot for the good info!!! No thanks to rhe Alice-In-Wonderland explanations from the techs at MSD...

Bill
 
Hi, Peter (DODGE Freak),

I had a nice, long conversation with Pat at TechWest about MSD, today, and was duly impressed with his overall knowledge and competency.
Thanks a LOT for the heads-up; I really appreciate the link you gave me!!!

The next time I have any problems with my MSD stuff, HE will get my business, for sure!

I got nothing but double-talk and worthless mis-information every time I talked to the tech staff at MSD. The appear to have no competent people for phone support.

That's a shame, because they repared my 5462 Boost Master (bad transistor) in a very short time, and for very little money ($24.95, including shipping back to me.)

Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks for hooking me up with the guy in North Carolina at TechWest He's very knowledgeable.

Bill
 
Glad I could be of help to you.

MSD might be the place to buy the new stuff but then look at it this way, we don't go back to the Mopar dealer when we need the motor rebuilt--at least not me :-D
 
Difference is, there are LOTS of places you can get a motor rebuilt... How many places (including your own shop) can work on malfunctioning MSD equipment?

We're kinda stuck.... but TechWest seems to have a really good handle on MSD tech... I'd go there in a heartbeat.

Thanks again for recommending them!

Bill
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top