New clutch installed and bad wheel hop?

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LovetheA's

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So I brought the dart to a reputable restoration shop near me in CT to have some work done on my 67 Dart. I was trying to do most of not all the work on the car by myself and was learning quite a bit and accomplishing a lot. The problem is that I’m in the process of building a 3 car garage with a larger bay area for a future car lift. It’s quite cold here in CT and I am sick and tired of trying to work on my cars on a dirt driveway out in the elements. I thought I have a little extra money I’ll bring the dart to this place have some work done and store it for a few months until spring. Then I can move the cars to the new garage. So I decided to have the Dart clutch replaced with a centerforce diagram clutch, aluminum flywheel and new throw out bearing and the overcenter spring was removed. The car has a 383 in it with 4 speed. I decided to replace old clutch because the car would wheel hop terrible if I tried to do anything but just feather out the clutch to get started moving. I thought that it could be due to a glazed over clutch that was toast. Well now the problem is back again after this supposed reputable shop did the work. For reference my other car a 67 383 4 speed Barracuda doesn’t due this at all and it has a basic factory clutch and flywheel set up? I didn’t think that mopars are supposed to have traction or wheel hop problems. Also I should mention that I had the shop replace the front and rear bushings on the factory type 6 leave springs so I don’t think it’s a suspension issue? The clutch feels good and grabs right at the top on the adjustment. I just can’t stand the fact that I have to ride it a little or feather it to not wheel hop terrible on take off? I’m at a loss any help appreciated. I’m not convinced that this shop really knows what they are doing. That is because of another post i put up explaining the difficulties after they worked on the top end of my engine. That story is better explained in another post.
 
LovetheA's said:
So I brought the dart to a reputable restoration shop near me in CT to have some work done on my 67 Dart. I was trying to do most of not all the work on the car by myself and was learning quite a bit and accomplishing a lot. The problem is that I’m in the process of building a 3 car garage with a larger bay area for a future car lift. It’s quite cold here in CT and I am sick and tired of trying to work on my cars on a dirt driveway out in the elements. I thought I have a little extra money I’ll bring the dart to this place have some work done and store it for a few months until spring. Then I can move the cars to the new garage. So I decided to have the Dart clutch replaced with a centerforce diagram clutch, aluminum flywheel and new throw out bearing and the overcenter spring was removed. The car has a 383 in it with 4 speed. I decided to replace old clutch because the car would wheel hop terrible if I tried to do anything but just feather out the clutch to get started moving. I thought that it could be due to a glazed over clutch that was toast. Well now the problem is back again after this supposed reputable shop did the work. For reference my other car a 67 383 4 speed Barracuda doesn’t due this at all and it has a basic factory clutch and flywheel set up? I didn’t think that mopars are supposed to have traction or wheel hop problems. Also I should mention that I had the shop replace the front and rear bushings on the factory type 6 leave springs so I don’t think it’s a suspension issue? The clutch feels good and grabs right at the top on the adjustment. I just can’t stand the fact that I have to ride it a little or feather it to not wheel hop terrible on take off? I’m at a loss any help appreciated. I’m not convinced that this shop really knows what they are doing. That is because of another post i put up explaining the difficulties after they worked on the top end of my engine. That story is better explained in another post.
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You need to check the pinion angle on the rear end ! Does the car have a pinion snubber on it ? Are there any spring clamps on the front of the leaf springs ? You have wheel hop because the rear end is twisting ! I’ll bet your gonna find that the pinion angle is to high ! Pinion angle needs to be down approx 5 to 7 degrees ! That way when you take off the pinion twist up to level! A pinion snubber will keep the axle housing from twisting up to far also ! But if driving on the street the pinion snubber can have a pretty harsh ride !
 
Yes the car has the small factory non adjustable pinion snubber on it and there are front clamps on both leaves that I think are factory. My other car my Barracuda has the same engine a 383, same leave springs and the basic factory clutch setup and doesn’t wheel hop at all? Could it all be due to the pinion angle being out of whack on the dart?
 
It seems this clutch wheel hop issue has been a problem for a long time and I just though that the dart clutch being trashed was the reason.
 
LovetheA's said:
It seems this clutch wheel hop issue has been a problem for a long time and I just though that the dart clutch being trashed was the reason.
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yes Sir ! I would check the pinion angle ! The reason you have will hop or any car has wheel hop is the twisting of the axle housing ! The axle housing is going to twist ! It just needs to start off twisting from a better angle ! That angle needs to start out in the down ward position approx 5 to 7 degrees down ! I don’t know the exact pinion angle for your car but I’ll bet 5 to 7 will fix your problem ! Make sure all your u bolts are tight also !
 
Wheel hop is almost always worn out leaf sprAngs. Oh and why on earth put an aluminum flywheel in a street car?
 
Thanks Rmoore I hope the issue is that simple. How do you change/adjust pinion angle and how do I properly measure it?
 
LovetheA's said:
Thanks Rmoore I hope the issue is that simple. How do you change/adjust pinion angle and how do I properly measure it?
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Go to the hardware store or tractor supply and buy an angle finder ! Look up on YouTube on how to check pinion angle ! To correct you buy angle shims from anywhere Summit Racing, Mancini Racing, etc !!! Rusty on post 6 is right also! Leaf springs being worn out can cause the pinion angle to be off !
 
LovetheA's said:
Well I thought better throttle response less spinning weight. Maybe overkill.
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That is very likely why the car won't idle down. The aluminum does not have enough inertia to help keep the engine spinning smoothly at a lower RPM. There's nothing WRONG aluminum flywheels, you just need to know that they act "differently". I wouldn't run one myself on the street......although I have and changed back to a stock flywheel.
 
While you're in there it might be worth checking the condition of the engine mounts especially the drivers side one & also the transmission mount on the tail shaft housing.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Wheel hop is almost always worn out leaf sprAngs. Oh and why on earth put an aluminum flywheel in a street car?
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the aluminum “light” flywheel is definitely a more harsh feel, I had a light weight billet flywheel and it was everything but smooth. My new 4 speed build will have a little heavier flywheel for street driving
 
Wheel hop is usually due to leaf springs wrapping & unwrapping. In other words, torque twists the housing up and turns the springs into an "S". Then they spring back and the cycle continues. As others have mentioned, stiffer springs and an adjustable pinion snubber can help. But shocks are important too. The stiffer the shock, the better they will control what the rear suspension is doing. The harder a car launches, the stiffer things need to be. That's why some drag cars use Super Stock springs and stiffer shocks, like adjustable Rancho shocks from a truck application. When you find the right combination, you may spin, but wheel hop will be minimized or eliminated.

A long time ago I started with SS springs on my Dart with Mopar Performance 4-speed drag shocks and slicks. But that wasn't enough. It wheelhopped under marginal track conditions. High HP, high stall converter, a lot of gear, etc. Stiffer shocks eliminated it. On rare occasions it spun, but at least it was smooth. Usually because of track prep.
 
LovetheA's said:
So I brought the dart to a reputable restoration shop near me in CT to have some work done on my 67 Dart. I was trying to do most of not all the work on the car by myself and was learning quite a bit and accomplishing a lot. The problem is that I’m in the process of building a 3 car garage with a larger bay area for a future car lift. It’s quite cold here in CT and I am sick and tired of trying to work on my cars on a dirt driveway out in the elements. I thought I have a little extra money I’ll bring the dart to this place have some work done and store it for a few months until spring. Then I can move the cars to the new garage. So I decided to have the Dart clutch replaced with a centerforce diagram clutch, aluminum flywheel and new throw out bearing and the overcenter spring was removed. The car has a 383 in it with 4 speed. I decided to replace old clutch because the car would wheel hop terrible if I tried to do anything but just feather out the clutch to get started moving. I thought that it could be due to a glazed over clutch that was toast. Well now the problem is back again after this supposed reputable shop did the work. For reference my other car a 67 383 4 speed Barracuda doesn’t due this at all and it has a basic factory clutch and flywheel set up? I didn’t think that mopars are supposed to have traction or wheel hop problems. Also I should mention that I had the shop replace the front and rear bushings on the factory type 6 leave springs so I don’t think it’s a suspension issue? The clutch feels good and grabs right at the top on the adjustment. I just can’t stand the fact that I have to ride it a little or feather it to not wheel hop terrible on take off? I’m at a loss any help appreciated. I’m not convinced that this shop really knows what they are doing. That is because of another post i put up explaining the difficulties after they worked on the top end of my engine. That story is better explained in another post.
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Are you saying that the clutch pedal is almost all the way to the top before the clutch engages? That’s wrong. As is typical when not using a Borg & Beck cover on cars designed for them, the clutch linkage ratios are wrong.

This is because the lever (finger) ratios are not the same on the diaphragm cover as they are on the B&B covers. And the Long covers (Ford) don’t have the same lever ratio as the others.

The clutch is acting like a toggle switch. You are literally “dropping” the hammer every time you let the clutch out, and like Locomotion pointed out, it’s bending the front segment of the spring.

The aluminum flywheel should drive like any other flywheel if the clutch linkage is fixed.

The clutch should engage in as much pedal travel as you can and still get free play and not have it release off the floor. The longer the pedal travel, the smoother the clutch engagement is.

And you still need to replace the springs.
 
Long as you don't get this wheel hop your're golden...
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Check for broken motor mounts. Open your hood, put your foot on the brakes firmly, put the car in gear and begin to carefully let the clutch out. Look to see if the driver's side of the engine is lifting up excessively. Put the transmission in reverse, let clutch out carefully and see if the passenger side of the motor lifts up excessively. Replace as necessary.

Disclaimer: don't drive around with the hood open.
 
You might check the condition of your spring eye bushings as well.
Maybe mount a camera to "see" suspect area(s).
 
Pinion angle, springs, and shocks.
I have never heard of a Mopar having wheel hop unless the springs are very bad or the shocks are terribly worn out.
My set up is a '74 Dart Sport 360 regular 4 speed 3:55 geared 8 3/4, 255 60 15 tires with Super Stock springs (003, 004) with the M.P. shocks for the same plus a Centerforce Dual Friction clutch. (over center spring was removed)
I don't have a lot of power, but the car does not wheel hop at all.
No matter if I dump it at 4,000 rpm.
It lifts on the back end and turns the tires a bit, but never wheel hops.
The clutch works well and I use a stock flywheel. I have never tried an aluminum flywheel on anything.
As a matter of fact, the clutch when it was new had full travel with gradual engagement from almost the floor to right at the top (I had 1/2'' free play at the top as measured by hand).
it engaged smoothly and the car felt like it wouldn't stall no matter if you let the clutch out in first at idle.
Now, after 1,000 miles or so, the clutch feels perfect and you don't have to press the pedal to the floor to fully engage it between shifts. It's just right as it is now.
And it has the same 1/2'' free play at the top (as measured by hand).

I understand that this clutch isn't for everyone, as it tends to lock up too fast and destroy parts if you run a lot of power and torque through it, but, at a lower power level south of 350 H.P. or so, it works well and is very reliable.

This is my experience, I hope it helps.
 
The clutch grabs about an inch from the top but can be adjusted to engage farther down not an issue. I think the first thing I should do is get the pinion angle correct. I don’t know if it is in between 5-7%. Then yes the front spring eye perch’s as well as the back of the springs are replaced with new bushings. The rear leave springs are the factory style that came in those BB 4 speed cars. I believe they are 6 leaves on each side. They may be even a little stiffer than original. The springs are about 15 years old but the car has only been driven about 10,000 miles so I wouldn’t think the springs are shot. I have new 3 way adjustable hotchkis fox shocks all the way around and they are new. I think those shocks should be adjustable to work for this car? Anyone else have any feedback on these shocks? There is a factory pinion snubber on the car but I also have the tall adjustable pinion snubber but don’t want to put that on for street driving as it clunks and bangs often. Based on this combination I think it should squat and go, not hop around like crazy. How do I determine if the rear leave springs are the problem?
 
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LovetheA's said:
The clutch grabs about an inch from the top but can be adjusted to engage farther down not an issue. I think the first thing I should do is get the opinion angle correct. I don’t know if it is in between 5-7%. Then yes the front spring eye perch’s as well as the back of the springs are replaced with new bushings. The rear leave springs are the factory style that came in those BB 4 speed cars. I believe they are 6 leaves on each side. They may be even a little stiffer than original. The springs are about 15 years old but the car has only been driven about 10,000 miles so I wouldn’t think the springs are shot. I have new 3 way adjustable hotchkis fox shocks all the way around and they are new. I think those shocks should be adjustable to work for this car? Anyone else have any feedback on these shocks? There is a factory pinion snubber on the car but I also have the tall adjustable pinion snubber but don’t want to put that on for street driving as it clunks and bangs often. Based on this combination I think it should squat and go, not hop around like crazy. How do I determine if the rear leave springs are the problem?
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I would call Center Force and ask before I made an adjustment. See what they say regarding clutch pedal free travel and "where" in the pedal travel the clutch should be engaging. They may have a different spec from factory.
 
yellow rose said:
Are you saying that the clutch pedal is almost all the way to the top before the clutch engages? That’s wrong. As is typical when not using a Borg & Beck cover on cars designed for them, the clutch linkage ratios are wrong.
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What are you saying here? That the Borg and Beck SHOULD release close to the top? I ask because that's what I have in the Valiant, since that's what it came with. It releases pretty close to the top and it's always felt fine.
 
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