New Magnum heads for 347 with Flow data

[AlV]

Graphs look nice too, AIV.

Thank you.

Since RAMM didn't mind I was happy to do it. I thought it would make it easier for me (and others) to follow along with each progression while RAMM is doing his thing. I for one appreciate his approach and like the fact that he started this thread by polling the forum.

-AlV

 

[RAMM]

This shows the amount of work just to end up with a closed chambered head that flows like a stock 1.88 360 head.

20 min per port, includes porting and NO valve job im sure. Not 20min per head

this is hillarious.

When you get done working a magnum head to where a mildly '250's cfm' ported La head flows, the port volume will the same..EXCEPT you will have major air speed issues from there out from things like the pinch and roof height . Get the ports big enough to slow things down, if you can without spending way too much time to almost get it and then having them crack on the motor.

what was it you said RAM, theres such thing as too much air speed? lol

And you started out pressing the velocity button and then turn around and tell me there "theres such a thing as too much air speed" back and forth you go.

You didnt respond to my points becaue they are all right on the money.
Ive been doing this for 18yrs, where you been??

Thanks again

I'm really confused by your post here. Back and forth I go? I just went back and re read all of your posts in this thread and I cannot find any questions that I haven't answered. Ask whatever question you need to ask and I will offer my answer. I think you may have gotten your lines crossed somewhere. J.Rob

 

[Hebrews10:26]

Thanks for showing us how a smaller bore 360 makes less power and how it costs more, that's invaluable info.

What advantages are there with building this odd ball, besides using a block one would normally pass on?

 

[RAMM]

No the showing is great, it shows people facts...like these heads suck for anything other than a 318 or stock 360 emissions

its just watching someone learn that fire burns you...get the burn cream quick.

Anyone who really knows should be asking whats up with the dodging of my questions, does anyone really want to learn here??

Go ahead try and act cool and take 3 steps back, see you at the finish line.

I agree that these heads are not something I want to spend a ton of time on trying to turn them into something they are not. The intention here is to show that they are in fact quite a bit better than '302 castings. I feel guys here have been lead to believe that the '302 is the "END ALL BE ALL" head to seek out. I am trying to lay it all out there as clear as I can how a Magnum casting can be better in terms of flow/effieciency/torque/power/ and feasiblity(economics).

Dropping a set of EQ's on wouldn't be fair. Here's a link to a stock stroke 360 I built using EQ's. J.Rob http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/1208phr_371ci_mopar_small_block/

 

[RAMM]

Thanks for showing us how a smaller bore 360 makes less power and how it costs more, that's invaluable info.

Next year for Halloween, just to be different , I'm gonna buy 200 dollars sheets and cut holes in them to make my ghost costume in your honor.

What is your question(s)? J.Rob

 

[Hebrews10:26]

What is your question(s)? J.Rob

If you end up at the same port volume as an LA head when done, was your choice of these heads based on chamber alone? Cost? ? or ?

 

[Hebrews10:26]

I agree that these heads are not something I want to spend a ton of time on trying to turn them into something they are not. The intention here is to show that they are in fact quite a bit better than '302 castings. I feel guys here have been lead to believe that the '302 is the "END ALL BE ALL" head to seek out. I am trying to lay it all out there as clear as I can how a Magnum casting can be better in terms of flow/effieciency/torque/power/ and feasiblity(economics).

Dropping a set of EQ's on wouldn't be fair. Here's a link to a stock stroke 360 I built using EQ's. J.Rob http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/1208phr_371ci_mopar_small_block/

That's true, people think they are it, when all they are is a 675 with a closed chamber.
I do agree the magnum starts out as a portad 318 small valve head in Flow.
Byut the same gos for magnums and la 360 heads, with the exception of chamber.

 

[RAMM]

If you end up at the same port volume as an LA head when done, was your choice of these heads based on chamber alone? Cost? ? or ?

First of all I am leaving the port as it is now right @ 160cc's. My choice to use these heads was based on:

1. I could easily get these heads as they are new and inexpensive.$285.00 CDN
2. To illustrate the difference between '302's used on previous 347 and Magnums

I will ask you a question regarding port volumes-What is the port volume of an LA head? J.Rob

 

[75Sport]

"If we continue to sin after receiving the truth there will be no sacrifice great enough to atone for those sins"

RAMM has every right to post what he wants. He created the post for all of us to read. The man is clearly knowledgeable and wasn't trying to sell anyone anything. Being confrontational is proving nothing and is only being counterproductive. Why don't we save this negative stuff for someplace else?

 

[RAMM]

Thanks for showing us how a smaller bore 360 makes less power and how it costs more, that's invaluable info.

What advantages are there with building this odd ball, besides using a block one would normally pass on?

The advantages are perceived to be using a 318 block you already have. I think a lot of guys are intimidated at the prospect of sourcing and installing a 360. I also think that guys want to "do up" there current 'teen and are often disappointed in the outcome. This offers a very small stepping stone between 318 to 360. That is why I am trying to keep it inexpensive --So it makes some sense. J.Rob

P.S. I noticed you edited your post here-I have never seen a $200 bill. I was hoping to see one. Also if you would like to discuss-then feel free to call 613-931-2157 or 1-800-267-8503 ask for Jesse

 

[metallidart]

Enough with the unecessary crap bringing down a cool thread. I like this thread because it shows the majority of us on this site who aren't "professionals" and don't have easy access to flow benches what different steps of porting can do to a set of heads. Like alot of people, I'm sure, I don't have money to drop on even a set of EQ heads, heck, I can't even afford a valve job. Does that mean I shouldn't do anything to a set of heads like this, if it is all I have to work with? That none of us should just use what we have, do what we can and have fun? No matter what it is, I think any engine will run better with a little porting. A thread like this gives me, the average Joe, a little insight as to they "why", "how", and "don't"s of doing a set like this so we don't make as many mistakes.

On with the awesome, informative thread.

 

[80fbody]

How does the rpm intake match up to the ports? Will you port match as well?

 

[RAMM]

How does the rpm intake match up to the ports? Will you port match as well?

Good question with an answer that may be hard to swallow for some. I will not port match the heads to the intake or the intake to the heads. It will go on as is with the exception of minor touch ups wherever the casting may be flawed.

A mismatch or step especially where floor meets floor can be beneficial and produce more power. Some say it curbs reversion and some feel the flow disturbance produces "eddy's" that promote mixture motion and better combustion. I don't know what really happens but I do know and have witnessed power losses when port matched. Here I am talking "average power".
Peak may be slightly better but average usually suffers. I am shooting for driveability and that includes part throttle tip-in. No port match here. J.Rob

Forgot to mention: The manifold used will be a Crosswind due to $$$$$$

 

[moper]

You made note of the Crosswind somewhere before - I can't recall if it was this thread or elsewhere but I remember you commented about the Crosswind and Air gap being close to equal. I've only used one that was not equal in performance (economy and "butt dyno" power suffered) and will avoid them now for a bunch of reasons.
Do you recall the setup that lost power as a result of port matching? Was it a problem with the matched intake and anotehr substituted that made more power? Was matched vs non-matched a planned test I guess is my question?

 

[RAMM]

You made note of the Crosswind somewhere before - I can't recall if it was this thread or elsewhere but I remember you commented about the Crosswind and Air gap being close to equal. I've only used one that was not equal in performance (economy and "butt dyno" power suffered) and will avoid them now for a bunch of reasons.
Do you recall the setup that lost power as a result of port matching? Was it a problem with the matched intake and anotehr substituted that made more power? Was matched vs non-matched a planned test I guess is my question?

Yes it was a planned test. I dropped a Performer RPM OOTB on a 360 and tested it. Results were quite good. I thought if that was good then taking the grinder to it would be better---Wrong. It lost about 5 ft/lbs avg-2500-6500 rpm. This was not one pull but many and the trend was very real and apparent. J.Rob

 

[RAMM]

If you end up at the same port volume as an LA head when done, was your choice of these heads based on chamber alone? Cost? ? or ?

My real reason and I figured it was too obvious to state it was because -"You can buy them new" I cannot buy "J,X, '596 etc....." new. J.Rob

 

[Hebrews10:26]

First of all I am leaving the port as it is now right @ 160cc's. My choice to use these heads was based on:

1. I could easily get these heads as they are new and inexpensive.$285.00 CDN
2. To illustrate the difference between '302's used on previous 347 and Magnums

I will ask you a question regarding port volumes-What is the port volume of an LA head? J.Rob

In comparrision to a guy going to a wrecking yard and buying a set of 360 heads for 80 dollars and maybe putting 600 into them with valve job and guides, valves/springs and seats, 600 dollars for bare casting is not a good buy.
For one of these members. That's 600 dollars plus valves, springs , retainers, rockers, springs, better valve job and porting. Sound like over a grand to start.

I didnt say anything about a 200 bill.

Port volume for a set of heads that start out from the factory 2.02 flowing almost 230cfm is 155cc's...the 1.88 flowing 214 cfm is 160 , blame it on the valves underhead shape.
In the links I posted there is a la360 head flowing stock what it took you porting to get, and then 240's ..with a smaller valve than what is used here.

If all people have are magnum heads, then good job on helping them make them work as good as the old stuff.

 

[Hebrews10:26]

I didn't post in this thread to be a jerk, but when people who know better blow off facts or another's factual points...why should I not do the same in return.

Do you believe the factory magnum int port has an advantage over the old 360 port?
I believe on a 318 magnum is that in the middle better choice for a street car needing a lil more power but isn't looking for or all out.
But the 318 port is 125 and this magnum is 153 cc, so whats 7 cc?lol

I agree with you also on intake manifold runners and sizing for ...air speed and the response/torque from it.

 

[Hebrews10:26]

I agree that these heads are not something I want to spend a ton of time on trying to turn them into something they are not. The intention here is to show that they are in fact quite a bit better than '302 castings. I feel guys here have been lead to believe that the '302 is the "END ALL BE ALL" head to seek out. I am trying to lay it all out there as clear as I can how a Magnum casting can be better in terms of flow/effieciency/torque/power/ and feasiblity(economics).

Dropping a set of EQ's on wouldn't be fair. Here's a link to a stock stroke 360 I built using EQ's. J.Rob http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/1208phr_371ci_mopar_small_block/

I forgot to ad that magnums are better than a 302 head unless you need a smaller port volume, for whatever reason that my be.

Facts , they are both are crackin sob's , most 302's ive seen crack all the way to the closed deck from the exhaust seat. Ive found 3 sets out of 8 that werent cracked.

In a way its sad people cant grasp that a magnum is like a 302 is in ported form.
But it cost more to use the magnum head.

Btw, im gonna call you, cause im pretty certain we are mostly on the same page and I bet there wouldnt be taking opinions sideways like on here.

 

[AlV]

So what are the next steps J.Rob? I'm hoping this thread doesn't stall

 

[RAMM]

In comparrision to a guy going to a wrecking yard and buying a set of 360 heads for 80 dollars and maybe putting 600 into them with valve job and guides, valves/springs and seats, 600 dollars for bare casting is not a good buy.
For one of these members. That's 600 dollars plus valves, springs , retainers, rockers, springs, better valve job and porting. Sound like over a grand to start. They are a good option if your existing Magnums are cracked and you have all the hardware to begin with for 80$ because now you don't need guide work or seat work or resurfacing.

I didnt say anything about a 200 bill. Yes you did--something snide about cutting holes in them and dressing up in them for next Hallowe'en

Port volume for a set of heads that start out from the factory 2.02 flowing almost 230cfm is 155cc's...the 1.88 flowing 214 cfm is 160 , blame it on the valves underhead shape.
In the links I posted there is a la360 head flowing stock what it took you porting to get, and then 240's ..with a smaller valve than what is used here. Your bench must have leaks because any LA casting in OEM form has never exceed 195 cfm on my bench. A sparkplug left out is usually somewhere around +30cfm

If all people have are magnum heads, then good job on helping them make them work as good as the old stuff. Thanks.

Look I really don't know why you have such a bee in your bonnet here. I never said anything to make anyone believe that these heads and the way I was doing them was some sort of miraculous endeavour that no one but me could ever pull off. I figured it was interesting to some to see it laid out step by step-Nothing more, nothing less. J.Rob

 

[RAMM]

I didn't post in this thread to be a jerk, but when people who know better blow off facts or another's factual points...why should I not do the same in return. Exactly what facts of YOURS did I blow off?

Do you believe the factory magnum int port has an advantage over the old 360 port? In fact yes. You are missing the much better short side radius, deep bowls, better pressure recovery design of the chamber and the superior exhaust port design.
I believe on a 318 magnum is that in the middle better choice for a street car needing a lil more power but isn't looking for or all out.
But the 318 port is 125 and this magnum is 153 cc, so whats 7 cc?lol ???

I agree with you also on intake manifold runners and sizing for ...air speed and the response/torque from it.

J.Rob

 

[RAMM]

I forgot to ad that magnums are better than a 302 head unless you need a smaller port volume, for whatever reason that my be.

Facts , they are both are crackin sob's , most 302's ive seen crack all the way to the closed deck from the exhaust seat. Ive found 3 sets out of 8 that werent cracked.

In a way its sad people cant grasp that a magnum is like a 302 is in ported form.
But it cost more to use the magnum head.

Btw, im gonna call you, cause im pretty certain we are mostly on the same page and I bet there wouldnt be taking opinions sideways like on here.

I look forward to it. I also think you should start your own thread on the various LA/Mag/aftermarket variations of heads for the SMALL Mopar and maybe we could all really learn something. J.Rob

 

[RAMM]

So what are the next steps J.Rob? I'm hoping this thread doesn't stall

The next steps are to finish up the other 7 intake ports and to clean up the exhaust ports and a follow up flow test on those. J.Rob

 

[txstang84]

I'm still interested to see how it pans out...