No Bronze Guides, Any Reason?

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What OldManMopar is referring to is very similar to sizing an intermediate shaft bushing with the special tool. Although it's not a ball, it does have round sides and as it's forced through the bushing, it resizes it. A little different, but same principle.
 
I have worked on a few heads through the years where the cam was bigger and the springs stiffer than stock, running iron guides without issue.
The key word there is “few”.

I used to use iron guides in milder builds, but when the heads would come back for freshening they’d always seem to need several guides replaced..... again.
So, I pretty much just stopped using them...... and that problem went away for me.
And, yes....... I have a proper Sunnen guide hone and the Sunnen guide bore gauge to set the sizing.

An example......
Before the oval track crate motor craze, we used to build a lot of motors for the local series.
One class was allowed to run Vortec(Chevy) heads.
These were solid lifter cam motors with lifts in the .570 range. Screw in studs, guide plates, roller rockers, Ferrea 6000 series valves, etc.
We’d start out with brand new castings.
These motors would be run into the 7300rpm range.

If you just honed the guides to make sure they were straight and round, and had the correct clearance....... after one season the guides were shot.
If you just installed bronze liners right off the bat, they’d go for several years without the guides needing any attention.
These were motors that got freshened every year, so we had many examples to look at.
 
RustyRatRod said:
What OldManMopar is referring to is very similar to sizing an intermediate shaft bushing with the special tool. Although it's not a ball, it does have round sides and as it's forced through the bushing, it resizes it. A little different, but same principle.
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As previously mentioned, when talking about valve guides it’s called “broaching”, and the tool is a “ball broach”.

With regards to guide liners, it “squeezes” the guide into the guide bore. It doesn’t actually remove any material.

If you trim the excess off the end of the liner so it’s flush with the guide boss before broaching, you’ll see it gets a little longer with each progressively larger broach.

I like to broach within a thou of the desired finished size, then I hone it the rest of the way.

My guess is if the OP has the guides measured with a proper guide bore gauge, the ex guides with be bellmouthed at the bottom.

With 3/8” stems in a street/strip application, I’d shoot for running them at about .0017”-.0018” clearance(exhaust).
 
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Oldmanmopar said:
Your wrong. My son installs them they are sizing balls you push through the bronze liners. If I get to the shop I will get some pictures of them. They also have pilots you push through now. I just called him to confirm what I stated. He laughed and asked if it was the same guy that uses the pistons to square deck a block.

He does this work every day for many auto and cycle shops that bring their machine work here . I just saw him doing some heads for a "shovel head" Instead of bronze guides these are bronze liners, There are boxes and boxes of different liners in the cabinet. Knurling is for shops that can't afford the tooling to install liners. You can control the sizing of the stem to guide clearance more accurate.

The new tooling is a hour glass looking pilot. More expensive I guess.

Some of you should not give advice if you don't know. I know I will not unless I talk to my son who is up to date on tooling. For those of you that are close to me you all can stop in when ever you want for work to get done..

Dave comes here all the time 1969383valiant he can confirm what I am saying. when my son does work the finished parts always get set on a clean shop towel. All completed heads and motors are bagged or shrink wrapped. He is very clean & meticulous with his work. Nothing goes out the door unless it is perfect.

He cares more about pride then money. He does this work on the side and there is no shortage of work due to his reputation in our area.
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LOL. Just LOL. What a blowhard.

BTW, I quit using cheap assed liners in the late 1980's. I just use a full bronze guide and HONE it to fit.

Evidently some here can't hone a guide or have the tools to do it.

As PRH said so well, for soft sprung low lift stuff a hardened cast iron guide is perfect. They can be run tighter and if the geometry is close they will live forever.

LOL
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
No it's the guy that spoke with you on the phone and was very respectful to you and likewise...who you now , like others ,run your mealy mouth to and treat like **** ..mean while advertising for your $ons machine $hop in every other post... tacky and in$ulting.
You yourself don't know what your son knows... you're just a blowhard parroting his words. Save your act , I'm not buying.
Ignore list.
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I don't have to know everything but when I see someone giving old advise . I will comment. I am not advertising for him. He don't need the work.

I know mopar's and auto body/paint work. And that has changed since I did it. I can admit my way is now old school even with auto body.

What I can tell you is I am proud of what he learned and what he does. I don't remember talking to you on the phone. But name calling is like biting off your nose to spite your face. But if that's all you know so be it.
 
If I can sort through all of the replies:

No, I didn't measure them. I don't have the tools. I pulled them out about a half inch and wiggled them there.

Seems like bronze will be the way to go.

I'll have to find a shop.

Thanks for the answers.

I'm out...
 
BTW, I quit using cheap assed liners in the late 1980's. I just use a full bronze guide and HONE it to fit.
Click to expand...

For the record, I love the K-line liners, and use them as my preferred choice whenever I can.
 
PRH said:
For the record, I love the K-line liners, and use them as my preferred choice whenever I can.
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I know lots of guys love them. They never grew on me. I don't think one is necessarily better than the other. It's just some guys lose their mind if you don't do it their way.

I prefer solid guides. Especially since I was doing tons of Chrysler junk and I detest 3/8 stem valves. Although I'm using them in my heads. I still hate them. It's easier to run a core drill down there, ream to size and press in a guide with the correct ID. Hone to size and done.

Either or. If done correctly both are a good way of getting it done. I'm not as dogmatic as some.
 
SpeedThrills said:
I have to find one. I'm in the very bottom of South Jersey, haven't done any engine work since I've lived here.

I'm not familiar. I thought they were all machined the head casting.
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Yes sir, the factory guides are an integral part of the head casting. When they wear out, the old ones are cut out and new ones are pressed in and then sized. OR as is being discussed here, bronze liners are installed. IMO, your best bet is to talk around and find a good machine shop in your area. There's too much dick measuring going on here to really get a handle on what might be best for you. That's becoming the norm for every thread around here, though and it is unfortunate.
 
I'm waiting for Dudley Do-Right to chime in. He will know. lol
 
I know it's hard to believe but there was a time when fancy bronze guides were not even invented. Yet we still raced. Huh... how could that be?

I've had one set on J heads done with bronze guides. Every other engine has had factory iron guides... street or race.

Bronze work good to keep the valves from sticking to the iron when they get hot. One of my engine guys doesn't use umbrella seals on the exhaust... maybe an old school Chevy stem seal. Or none at all without any issues on race motors.

My W2 heads were done in '93 with iron guides. I'll stick with them until I get them redone next time...then I may make a change. May is the key word. I'll likely remove the exhaust seals, too.
 
Krooser said:
I know it's hard to believe but there was a time when fancy bronze guides were not even invented. Yet we still raced. Huh... how could that be?

I've had one set on J heads done with bronze guides. Every other engine has had factory iron guides... street or race.

Bronze work good to keep the valves from sticking to the iron when they get hot. One of my engine guys doesn't use umbrella seals on the exhaust... maybe an old school Chevy stem seal. Or none at all without any issues on race motors.

My W2 heads were done in '93 with iron guides. I'll stick with them until I get them redone next time...then I may make a change. May is the key word. I'll likely remove the exhaust seals, too.
Click to expand...

The exhaust valves on early and GEN II Hemis point DOWN, so there's zero need for exhaust seals on the stems. Oil doesn't run uphill. lol LOTS of older engines never came with seals on the exhaust valves. They're really unneeded. It's not like the exhaust is going to blow up into the guide since it takes the path of least resistance when the exhaust valve is open. Likewise, it's not going to suck oil into the cylinder on the intake stroke, since once again, the air fuel mixture takes the path of least resistance into the open intake valve. Plus, any oil that happens to splash onto the exhaust valve stems only serves to lubricate and cool the much hotter exhaust valve anyway so it's a win win.
 
along that line on the Indy Turbo six we drilled a hole in the exhaust guide to get lube into the spirals, no seals
no way the oil was going to move against the boost backpressure
we had a problem with finish grind on valves many years ago
they acted like files on the guides
been od honing the valvestems ever since
 
SpeedThrills said:
If I can sort through all of the replies:

No, I didn't measure them. I don't have the tools. I pulled them out about a half inch and wiggled them there.

Seems like bronze will be the way to go.

I'll have to find a shop.

Thanks for the answers.

I'm out...
Click to expand...
http://www.

fonseperformance.com/

Fonse is not far from you.
Medford Speed is my local shop. Where in SJ are you?
 
Just for the record, I have seen bronze guides wear prematurely as well, I mean like less than 10K on them. Rocker geometry/type, and stem/bore finish as well as oiling/seals all play a larger role when You push the valvetrain. There really aren't any reasons for weenie wagging here, for what the OP is running, any quality valve guide & stem prep work should hold up for years & 10's of thousands of miles so.....................
 
SpeedThrills said:
If I can sort through all of the replies:

No, I didn't measure them. I don't have the tools. I pulled them out about a half inch and wiggled them there.

Seems like bronze will be the way to go.

I'll have to find a shop.

Thanks for the answers.

I'm out...
Click to expand...
Hey, no problem, sorry it turned into one of those threads on Ya'....lol......
 
fratzog lover said:
I literally just got home from Englishtown after a long day at work. I miss that place.
Click to expand...
Yep, I went there a coupla times back in my 6 months at Ft Monmouth. I was your classic high activity local track with a dedicated local following back-in-the-day. A great kind of place to have fun with cars and make good memories.
 
killer6 mentioned stem and bore finish
essential for a long lived build
I od hone the stems for finish and to hold some oil
and to check for bent/ defective- It's amazing how many bells you find

and knurl>ream>hone solid guides (for fit and oiling)
or run the spiral K lines and hone to fit
sometimes run the spiral inserts
 
I got ferrea 5000 series for my 516 heads. I was thinking of using bronze guides
I found these mahle 2173193 ones but they are .343.
Are they to be reamed to size? I couldn't see any .3745.
Do most shops do reaming spiraling and honing of the guides?
If the shop doesnt have a Sunnen like this should I look elsewhere?
thanks!

2024212.jpg
 
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