No Spark

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Maybe some coils have grounded cases, but in this case, they do not.

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The only other inductive ignition coil that I have seen that was not wired internally like that, was on a 2 cylinder,2-cycle snowmobile of the 70s/80s, with a 180* crank. In that system; the secondary coil was isolated from the primary, and each end of the secondary went to a different sparkplug.Both plugs fired at the same time;one piston being near the top, while the other was near the bottom. The first was finishing compression, and the other finishing exhausting.I have no clue how those coils were internally wired, except that the two sides of the transformer did not have conductivity to eachother.The always non-metalic cases often(usually)had a ground lug. I assumed that,that type was center-tapped, cuz of the way the VOM responded. Occasionally I would come across a coil that did not have a ground-lug. I assumed that kind was shuffling electrons between the ends of the secondary wire. Of course that would mean that electrons on one end were jumping to ground, while on the other, they were jumping from ground. What a marvel.
Two-cycle engines,in general, are a marvel.
I think I have seen this type again on an EFI 4-stroke system, where the engine had half as many coils as cylinders. I just cannot remember the details.
 
Just back from extensive testing on the SAME coil in reference, still in the same car, the '66.
Checked also on the 72 daily driver.
The 72 runs fine with the coil on a bungee cord, the 66 will NOT. This is the coil I "learned" that "lesson" on.
So what's wrong? The meter shows open continuity from either primary circuit connection to the center connector. As soon as the coil is in the bracket, it runs perfectly as it always has. Starts and runs fine. Upon loosening the clamp on the coil, the ignition becomes ragged and motor stops as coil is slid out, naturally providing a few good spark bites to me, but I expected that, even with several shop towels and paper to hold it.
I have been driving with a goofy coil since 1981. No continuity from center connection to case either, so it's been jumping internally to the case all these years.
It worked exactly the same when I put it in new, which was why I had to knock paint off to get the case grounded back then.
I will be changing the coil, and sawing it open to see WTF internally.
Never had reason to suspect I bought a bad coil, so never looked any deeper into internal coil connections, but if anyone is subject to buying brand new things that are bad, it is I.
I ordered a new reissued Hamilton wristwatch maybe 20 years ago, and the face was different from that shown in the advertisement, and I was disappointed, but might have kept it, except that it wouldn't run. Sent that back for refund..
I could list a dozen brand-new "broke" instances if I thought a while, both in personal life and at work.
It is surprising that whatever arcing is happening inside did not eventually burn away the end of the secondary wiring in complete failure.
Let's all learn from this one.
 
Let's also stop discounting others' actual life experiences.
It's not too hard to reserve judgement until there's investigation, or is it?
 
Darthomas said:
Just back from extensive testing on the SAME coil in reference, still in the same car, the '66.
Checked also on the 72 daily driver.
The 72 runs fine with the coil on a bungee cord, the 66 will NOT. This is the coil I "learned" that "lesson" on.
So what's wrong? The meter shows open continuity from either primary circuit connection to the center connector. As soon as the coil is in the bracket, it runs perfectly as it always has. Starts and runs fine. Upon loosening the clamp on the coil, the ignition becomes ragged and motor stops as coil is slid out, naturally providing a few good spark bites to me, but I expected that, even with several shop towels and paper to hold it.
I have been driving with a goofy coil since 1981. No continuity from center connection to case either, so it's been jumping internally to the case all these years.
It worked exactly the same when I put it in new, which was why I had to knock paint off to get the case grounded back then.
I will be changing the coil, and sawing it open to see WTF internally.
Never had reason to suspect I bought a bad coil, so never looked any deeper into internal coil connections, but if anyone is subject to buying brand new things that are bad, it is I.
I ordered a new reissued Hamilton wristwatch maybe 20 years ago, and the face was different from that shown in the advertisement, and I was disappointed, but might have kept it, except that it wouldn't run. Sent that back for refund..
I could list a dozen brand-new "broke" instances if I thought a while, both in personal life and at work.
It is surprising that whatever arcing is happening inside did not eventually burn away the end of the secondary wiring in complete failure.
Let's all learn from this one.
Click to expand...
Before you cut your goofy coil apart, test the continuity between the all three terminals, that is, the +, the - and the secondary output. You should have various amounts of continuity between all three, as in the diagram posted earlier.
 
Rustedwrench said:
Before you cut your goofy coil apart, test the continuity between the all three terminals, that is, the +, the - and the secondary output. You should have various amounts of continuity between all three, as in the diagram posted earlier.
Click to expand...
Only contiuity on the primary connections.
No continuity to anywhere from the secondary center post, not even the case.
In the middle of trying ready the house for sale, so may not be moved and able to cut it open till later this
summer. It must be arcing inside to complete the circuit. If it did have continuity to either end of the primary, it wouldn't be biting me when I puled it with the motor running.
 
Darthomas said:
Let's also stop discounting others' actual life experiences.
It's not too hard to reserve judgement until there's investigation, or is it?
Click to expand...
I say again; I think the world may be flat.

The primary continuity may be as low as one ohm; the secondary could be hundreds to thousands as times as much
 
HI guys - I got busy yesterday and could not get back to this until now. A couple of things - can I get a clear explanation of how to measure the reluctor gap? Sorry it's just not clear to me. Also, where is the ballast I need to by pass? If I know where it is pretty sure I can handle that one. I want to get back to the car shows next weekend, and really hate to put this car on a flatbed so thanks for your help trying to figure it out.

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Ballast is probably gone with the MSD.

I do see one issue, I bet the metal tang on top of the rotor isn't making contact with the pin in the center of the dizzy cap.
 
Found your problem. You need a new distributor rotor. Look at the metal connection on top. It is supposed to ride, spring loaded, to the bottom of the center post of the cap. If no connection is made, no spark to any cylinder.
 
I'm thinking new cap and rotor, clean the outer edges of the reluctor and check the gap after doing so.
 
I actually took a pic inside the distributor but failed to post it. I just measured the voltage at the positive terminal with the ground on the valve cover. My new multi-meter said "0" and a test light did not light up. Did I use the correct measuring procedure?

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brodphish said:
I actually took a pic inside the distributor but failed to post it. I just measured the voltage at the positive terminal with the ground on the valve cover. My new multi-meter said "0" and a test light did not light up. Did I use the correct measuring procedure?
Click to expand...

At this point, I would refer to post #39, get that out of the way before proceeding.

Now, for grins if you want to see if it will fire get that metal tab on the rotor back where it should be, put the cap on and see if it will fire. That tab must make contact with the center post in the cap.
 
Bad sport, GOOD EYE! I was blinded by the pink and missed it. Look at pic of cap, it has line around carbon pile from rotor spring...
OP even if the rotor wasnt tweaked, that cap is crap! Replace before it gets big brown buggers on it. Use dielectric grease on plug wires on both ends. Dont forget to ground your coil!
 
This edge is what I'm talking about cleaning, perhaps a piece of emery cloth. Use compressed air to blow out the dust from it.

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Darthomas said:
Let's also stop discounting others' actual life experiences.
It's not too hard to reserve judgement until there's investigation, or is it?
Click to expand...
Ok, I see now.
Your coil is an alien too. :D

Seriously though, having a coil that wont work unless the case is grounded is not a case of pre proof judgment, but a case of a coil that does something that no coil of it's type is designed or expected to do.
The statement I made in the beginning still stands and is valid.
Canister coils do not need to be grounded at the case to function, and this is misinformation to a person who is learning how things work on their car.
Just because Mt St Helens happened to blow the side out in a certain direction doesn't mean that we quit building houses near volcanoes only in that direction.
It was an unpredictable fluke and not the norm.
Your personal experience with that problem is an unpredictable fluke and not the norm.

That's all it was ever about.

Looks like that rotor contact got pushed off to the side on a previous cap installation and is running around the outside of the tower for the carbon button.
And an FYI that nasty rotor can be popped of with two screwdrivers, cleaned up and put back on.
Just watch for the roll pin between it and the shaft and note or mark if you need to how it goes back on or you'll end up with big block rotor phasing and it won't run right for sure. :D
 
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Although the distributors toothed rotor "the rusty piece" is ugly, it likely doesn't matter. The variable reluctor doesn't really care about surface rust when sensing the iron teeth passing over the sensor; the gap matters way more. The bent metal tab on the rotor above the toothed rotor is what's causing the no spark condition. Change that rotor and it will start.

If you decide to remove the toothed rotor and clean it, avoid abrasives like sand paper. Take a nylon brush and some light oil and brush the teeth, clean off and apply a light coat of oil to prevent further corrosion. The object is to restore the teeth and keep their contour. You don't want any further imperfections or it will affect timing
 
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We are on the right track here! I twisted the rotor tab back to where I thought it should be. Hooked up the new coil and it tried to fire. Thought maybe the new coil was not powerful enough and hooked up the old coil. It made a weaker attempt to fire. Took off the distributor cap and tried to clean the center pin contact with a few swipes of sandpaper. Evidently that was not helpful as it now does not want to fire.

Do I need to ground the coil? That debate was very confusing to a newbie. Thanks!!!!
 
T56MaxTorq said:
Although the distributors toothed rotor "the rusty piece" is ugly, it likely doesn't matter. The variable reluctor doesn't really care about surface rust when sensing the iron teeth passing over the sensor; the gap matters way more. The bent metal tab on the rotor above the toothed rotor is what's causing the no spark condition. Change that rotor and it will start.
Click to expand...

Yeah the rust is too far away. The reluctor fails to trigger accurately somewhere north of .035. The rust belt is way further than that.I would,however, sharpen the points of the reluctor, see earlier posts.
But I think I see a bigger issue; What is going on with those butt connectors in post #43? Olly, ya canna' 'ave thaat in the triigring suurkhit.
If those are connecting your trigger to the ECU or other Amp, butt connectors are a very short-term connection. The signal voltage coming out of that device are extremely small and easily lost.
 
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