Numbers Matching

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pastortom1

pastortom1

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Guys, I've heard so many opposing opinions about "numbers matching" and how the term is used in classic auto sales, that I'm about dizzy.

If a car has the options listed, and they're original or NOS, or even dead on licensed repro's, I would call that numbers matching options. Correct?

What about an engine? Lots of engines were blown and replaced by the factory, or by the owners at different times, not to mention the umpteen thousand things owners may have done to the motor to increase HP........So, if a car has the "correct block" in it as far as the actual numbers are concerned (and I assume that the "numbers" means from the VIN and fender tags, BUT that's where the controversies enter in), what exactly does that MEAN? If a 426 Hemi was blown up, and later on in life was replaced with a new correct Mopar 426 Hemi engine, with all the correct gear, is it numbers matching? 8)
 
Numbers matching refers to the car having the original motor and transmission with the correct vin number stamped in it. Vin numbers match that of the car.
 
So original blocks from the 70's have the VIN stamped on them......Correct?.....Is this true across the board for older Mopar blocks, or are there exceptions to the rule?

I've also seen Barrett sell cars that were listed as numbers matching, with an addendum that the block was not original.........Hence, the controversies arise.........How could that car then be listed as numbers matching? :read2:
 
I think after 68 they started stamping the blocks and trannys. Im not sure but perhaps GM or Ford stamped rears ?

Some may also consider casting numbers as numbers matching also. In other words if the original motor is missing but the new motor has the correct casting number parts (heads, intake, carb, exhaust) they may list it as numbers matching all though the block it self doesnt match.

If the block was replaced by the dealer the vin pad was suppose to be stamped I believe all though many werent which makes the blocks very valuable for a car missing its original. A blank block is better then a in correct vin.
 
Mopar started stamping in 68. You will see the ORDER number stamped instead of the VIN. But in 69 they started stamping the VIN. The exception was Lil Red Express trucks, which didn't have the engines stamped.

It's cool for a car to have all of its original parts such as starter, alternator and such, but the big deal is the motor and trans. And there are those who think a car with it's original block and incorrect trans is worth more than an incorrect block and original trans.

Case in point. My M code has the original trans and Dana, but not the block. I know someone with an M code that has the original block, but not the trans. And even though my car is complete and correct, which cannot be said about this other car, I believe he is of the opinion his car is more desirable because it has the original motor......skipping the fact it is missing it's entire interior and a bunch of other stuff.

As far as I'm concerned it really doesn't make much difference in the value which one of those is missing. And while the dealerships may well have been charged with the task of restamping warranty blocks back in the day, doing it now is illegal.

That, however, doesn't seem to bother some fairly well known " restorers" out there
 
For a car to be numbers matching the engine would match whats indicated on the vin tag and fender tag.My 1970 Duster has a build date of Feb 1970,from what I understand the engine and transmission would be dated coded within thee months of the build date.However it appears Mopar used what ever they had available to build this Duster.The engine,transmission, steering box and wiper motor are date coded Oct 1969.The vin tag ,fender tag and broadcast sheet match what in the car.
 
pastortom1 said:
I've also seen Barrett sell cars that were listed as numbers matching, with an addendum that the block was not original.........Hence, the controversies arise.........How could that car then be listed as numbers matching? :read2:
Click to expand...
That guy's an ***. How can it be listed as numbers matching? Because it's his auction. All he wants is more money. ...but it's a dealer installed warranty block, so it counts at matching numbers. Whatever. The original jackass missed a shift or whatever and blew up the original motor. Period. Numbers matching means original motor and trans. What next? It's a survivor because it's been repainted the original color?
 
It isn't simply "Oh it's a 383 car and it has (any old) 383 in it so it's number's matching". It refers to the original motor, trans, (and to a much lesser extent) rear end it left the factory with. To some degree it also refers to the VIN (or order number) stampings on the body panels.

But consider this scenario. Back in 69 you buy a GTX (or Dart or whatever) and the front end gets crunched. It is repaired at the dealership using a front clip from another car. Now say 6 month later the rear is smashed. Again, it's repaired at the dealership using the rear clip from another car. Now the dash tag, motor, and trans VINs all match up, but the core support and trunk rail don't.

IS this still a number's matching original GTX?
 
I Love Seeing Cars On Ebay Listed Having 14,000 Orig Miles .
You Look At The Engine And All You See Is Oil Leaking. The Rear End Is Dripping.
And The Drake Pedal Rubber Is Warn To Nothing Left.
Oh Ya Its Original.
 
You know, 375 brings up another good point...........I have seen many cars that were "survivors" in that they were completely original down to the last screw, BUT at some point they were resprayed........A lot of older body shops of the day would do a quick recoat in the same color right over the existing paint with no sealer or primers..........usually they had a few small dents repaired or something menial, and then recoated............

Well...........is it classified as a survivor or isn't it? :read2:
 
In the "antique car" world (as opposed to muscle cars) they will accept "original paint" if there is (I think it's) 80% original paint on the car. My dad had a 56 Packard that had been touched up in a couple of places, but not "repainted". It was still accepted as having "original paint".

Then again, those guys look at a lot of their hobby differently. I know a guy that wanted a Packard limo with the open drivers cockpit, but the particular car he wanted was pretty much impossible to find. So what did he do? He built his own out of a couple of different cars. Now the fun part is it is now accepted as being what it looks like it is despite the fact it didn't start life as such.

For us, there is no way we would consider a 70 Satellite with aero parts on it a real Superbird. That just won't happen, and I've yet to get anyone from that other group of collectors to adequately explain why it's OK for them
 
While we're on the numbers subject, I'd also like to know what to do about missing fender tags on a car where you really care about HAVING a correct one........It's not an area where I have much experience, but I do have a nice Charger I'm building, and I'd like the original tag(s) repo'd........

What does a soul do in such a situation? :read2:
 
IMO, For some 68 and all 69+ Mopars to be a numbers matching car it MUST have the engine and trans with the VIN or SO stamped in it that it originally came with. Anything else isn't numbers matching.

Date code correct = not numbers matching

Engine and trans matching the fender tag = Not numbers matching. It's the right size engine or trans for the car, but not the one that had the stampings. A 71 Demon340 engine in a 71 Duster 340 isn't a numbers car. Even if the engine is built in the correct period (date code).
 
You can get another tag made. Its easy when you have the original and just want a duplicate. If the tag is missing, its more difficult to get one done....at least if you go through G.G. it is. The exception to that rule is if you have the build sheet. Neither one? Then G.G. is probably not the guy to go to. I've known him for years, but I doubt he would just whip up a tag for me based on what I said was on the car.

The alternative is to let him look over the car BEFORE any resto work is done. Cause after that, it's impossible to know what was and what wasn't. I may well have him look at one of mine later this year for the purposes of making a missing tag.

And cracked, I agree with you 100%

I know you'll sleep better knowing that:-D
 
For the Charger, we have the original broadcast sheet from under the back seat..........

On the same note, has anyone heard of "AG Backeast" for fender tag repops?..........I see it listed on other sites, but can't find any contact info........

If I produce the VIN and broadcast, it seems they should be able to help......I've seen their work and it's first rate in the pics.....

Any info. or advice? :read2:
 
68 Sedan said:
And cracked, I agree with you 100%

I know you'll sleep better knowing that:-D
Click to expand...

That's a relief! :-D

You can get a tag made. There are a few places that will do one up.

ag backeast (http://www.datatags.com/) , trim tags, ecs

With a broadcast sheet you should have no issues putting together an accurate tag for the car.
 
Well my take is this!

Numbers Matching= Car or truck having the ORIGINAL BORN WITH engine,trans,rearend which are the main components! Alternators,starters,hoses,belts etc doesen't really may=tter they are just date coded not vin coded! Some people also believe that if the engine or trans was replaced by a Dealership under warranty that is acceptable also. I believe only BORN WITH FROM THE FACTORY Engine,Trans,Rearend is only acceptable.But who is to say who draws the line on what is right or wrong! A lot of people sure do spend a lot of $$$ having vin# stamped on blocke etc to make them appear they came with the car at the factory!


Survivor Car= A car with original matching number engine, trans, rearend, original paint , original interior! Everything original but tires,shocks,belts,hoses ! Things that are normal wear and tear items including, starters, alt, etc. But again who draws the line and who is right!
 
They make a mistake by saying "VIN on trunk lip A body only" B bodies have it there as well.
 
Well, that is true.

But, the article is about a 1970 Hamtramck built cars, and no B-bodies were built there in 1970. ;-)

The article is about a Valiant as well, if you have a 1970 Duster the rear number should be stamped in the rear package tray support metal.
 
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