offset bushings

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dan5354

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I got most of my Moog parts from Rock today only to discover that I didn't get the offset bushings I thought I ordered. My question is - how important is it to use them instead of stock type bushings?
 
When I had my stock upper control arm bushings the alignment shop was unable to give my duster the proper camber. Even at the farthest cam bolt setting.
 
Dustert73 said:
When I had my stock upper control arm bushings the alignment shop was unable to give my duster the proper camber. Even at the farthest cam bolt setting.
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So yea, pretty important for adding the caster that these cars need to drive nice out on the hiway.
Otherwise they feel kinda "Twitchy"? at speed. :D
 
Thanks everyone- for the feedback - they go back for the offset type. Good thing I'm not in a hurry
 
What happens to these old cars that doesn't allow for the proper caster/camber adjustment of the front end anymore? I would understand that an accident would contribute to that situation, but other than that what changes?? The offset bushings were created to help with either caster?, camber? or both? I just rebuilt the front end of my 71 Charger R/T, and it had the offset bushing in either the front or rear of the control arm(cant remember which), and that car was all over the road. Ive replaced all bushings, with "standard" moogs, pulled the power gearbox for a rebuild at Firm Feel, and am waiting to get it back. Firm Feel wanted to sell me adjustable upper arms to get more camber adjustment. After explaining I was doing a stock type restoration, and didn't want tubular control arms, I was told to align it with as much +camber as possible.
 
Most of the time, nothing happens. The addition of radial tires is why they need more caster and camber as well. The contact patch on a radial tire requires more angle than bias ply tires, because the contact patch on the radial tire "stays put" for a wider range of movement than a bias ply. So, whereas a bias ply may be good at .5 degree of camber, the radial will need closer to 1 degree to put it in the "same place". Same with caster.
 
Ok, so the "new" recommended castor/camber settings are for changing performance/tire technology etc... and are just that, "new recommended settings"! The factory service manual had + or - specifications for caster/camber for the given tires or performance level of the time, and the offset bushings allow you to "add" or "subtract" from those +/- specifications to increase the performance level for your car? Said another way, the offset bushings are not to compensate for frame sag or damage done to your car? Or, when an alignment shop cant get your into "factory" specs,or "recommended" specs and recommends the offset bushings its more than likely due to worn standard bushings? ....Im getting dizzy :blob:
 
Vitamin c said:
Ok, so the "new" recommended castor/camber settings are for changing performance/tire technology etc... and are just that, "new recommended settings"! The factory service manual had + or - specifications for caster/camber for the given tires or performance level of the time, and the offset bushings allow you to "add" or "subtract" from those +/- specifications to increase the performance level for your car? Said another way, the offset bushings are not to compensate for frame sag or damage done to your car? Or, when an alignment shop cant get your into "factory" specs,or "recommended" specs and recommends the offset bushings its more than likely due to worn standard bushings? ....Im getting dizzy :blob:
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Right. If you have some kind of frame sag or damage, that should be addressed prior to any alignment attempt.

But the offset bushings allow for a far greater caster/camber change than what is necessary for just the radial changeover. Most people like the road feel additional caster gives. It's great for good steering "returnability" coming out of a turn and that same force is also what keeps the car going straight down the riad.

With positive caster, you are not just turning the wheels. You are also lifting the front of the car up as well. This is where the returnability and road stability comes from. The force of gravity returning the car back down and the wheel straight at the same time.

All that said, you can get to the point of too much caster, where it feels like the car is going to "fall over" when you take a turn. It's a really strange sensation.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Right. If you have some kind of frame sag or damage, that should be addressed prior to any alignment attempt.

But the offset bushings allow for a far greater caster/camber change than what is necessary for just the radial changeover. Most people like the road feel additional caster gives. It's great for good steering "returnability" coming out of a turn and that same force is also what keeps the car going straight down the riad.

With positive caster, you are not just turning the wheels. You are also lifting the front of the car up as well. This is where the returnability and road stability comes from. The force of gravity returning the car back down and the wheel straight at the same time.

All that said, you can get to the point of too much caster, where it feels like the car is going to "fall over" when you take a turn. It's a really strange sensation.
Click to expand...

Good stuff, I am having issues with my duster having excessive wandering. Hopefully all it needs is more positive caster.
 
Yes, too much toe out will cause wandering as well as worn parts.
 
I would hope it has the right toe since I just had a alignment about 6 months ago... Probably should stretch a tape measure out and check.
 
YAHBUT, to what/whos specs was it alligned. And the tape test is only good enough to get it to the alignment shop.
Ok, causes for wandering,with all new high-quality parts are, in no particular order:1)Tires, 2)alignment, 3)Sector-shaft adjustment, 4)roadsurface, 5)atmospheric conditions, 6)rear suspension, 7)shocks, 8)other.
Where oh where do those aggravating smiley faces pop up from?
 
AJ/FormS said:
YAHBUT, to what/whos specs was it alligned. And the tape test is only good enough to get it to the alignment shop.
Ok, causes for wandering,with all new high-quality parts are, in no particular order:1)Tires, 2)alignment, 3)Sector-shaft adjustment, 4)roadsurface, 5)atmospheric conditions, 6)rear suspension, 7)shocks, 8)other.
Where oh where do those aggravating smiley faces pop up from?
Click to expand...

When I took it to tire discounters I told them to use the "granny" specs on the Skosh chart lol What's sector-shaft adjustment? Also I have air shocks installed in the rear, could that throw it off as well if its not the same psi as when I had the alignment?
 
AJ/FormS said:
YAHBUT, to what/whos specs was it alligned. And the tape test is only good enough to get it to the alignment shop.
Ok, causes for wandering,with all new high-quality parts are, in no particular order:1)Tires, 2)alignment, 3)Sector-shaft adjustment, 4)roadsurface, 5)atmospheric conditions, 6)rear suspension, 7)shocks, 8)other.
Where oh where do those aggravating smiley faces pop up from?
Click to expand...

The faces pop up when you put two characters together that make up one of the emoticons. :D
 
Dustert73 said:
When I took it to tire discounters I told them to use the "granny" specs on the Skosh chart lol What's sector-shaft adjustment? Also I have air shocks installed in the rear, could that throw it off as well if its not the same psi as when I had the alignment?
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Don't know what the "granny" specs are, ?

As far as the air shocks, the only thing to keep in mind is, the higher you lift the back of the car, the more your taking away from +caster.

Sector shaft adjustment, on the top of your steering gear box, there is a large nut with a slotted bolt in the center of it. By loosening the nut, and adjusting the bolt you can take slop out of the box. (slop you feel in the center of your steering wheel when driving).
 
Dustert73 said:
When I took it to tire discounters I told them to use the "granny" specs on the Skosh chart lol What's sector-shaft adjustment? Also I have air shocks installed in the rear, could that throw it off as well if its not the same psi as when I had the alignment?
Click to expand...

i dont know why anyone would want those specs(granny) this is 2015 not 1970.
 
The granny specs are in all likelihood why it's wandering. Those specs are meant for bias ply tires.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Right. If you have some kind of frame sag or damage, that should be addressed prior to any alignment attempt.

But the offset bushings allow for a far greater caster/camber change than what is necessary for just the radial changeover. Most people like the road feel additional caster gives. It's great for good steering "returnability" coming out of a turn and that same force is also what keeps the car going straight down the riad.

With positive caster, you are not just turning the wheels. You are also lifting the front of the car up as well. This is where the returnability and road stability comes from. The force of gravity returning the car back down and the wheel straight at the same time.

All that said, you can get to the point of too much caster, where it feels like the car is going to "fall over" when you take a turn. It's a really strange sensation.
Click to expand...
Ah, now I understand. I was under the impression that if you needed or were recommended offset bushings you had some type of problem that wasn't allowing a setting to factory specification.
 
I wish this conversation was going a couple months ago when I bought mine.. I ended up just going with stock bushing, because I somewhat assumed the same as Vitamin C. Now I want pull off the UCA and install the offset bushings... :banghead:
 
Well if it makes you feel any better, I just rebuilt the whole front end on my 71 R/T charger and went back with standard bushings. A previous owner rebuild had the offset bushings installed in either the front or rear only of the upper arms.(don't recall front or rear) I was unaware of the offset bushings previously installed and just ordered a standard kit for replacement so I went with it. Id also like to comment that I assumed you use a total of "4" offset bushings when going the offset route????? or do you use only 2????
 
I thought the skosh chart was all radial tire specs?
 
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