Oil clearances and a surprise

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Small Block Duster

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Hi guys. You guys have been a lot of help and I appreciate it very much. I don't like starting another post so quickly but I need your advice.

I began to do the initial blueprint to my 360 such as mock-up and checking bearing clearances and the first thing I found was the machine shop had pressed my pistons onto the rods backwards. I understand mistakes happen but this is a pretty amateur mistake and it makes me wonder what else they may have missed. So I took them to another machine shop to have them pressed off and assembled correctly. And hopefully not destroy my pins or my pistons in the process.

Anyway, the main bearing clearance is coming up as high as .0026" on the rear main, #3 and 4 were about 2.4, and the tightest being number 2 main at 2.0 to 2.1. The #2 main bearings showed a little tracking after turning the crank with the caps torqued up. We switched bearing shells from the #2 main to the #1 main and vice versa. #1 main went from 2.3 or 2.4 down to 2.1 or 2.2 and #2 main still close to the same at 2.1 or 2.0. This is after measuring at different ambient temperatures and several times. Also, both get about .0001 smaller from front back on each main. I have full groove p-series main bearings. The thrust is about 3.5 and the crank seems to turn smoothly. I'll know the rod clearance when I get them back. This engine is going to red line at approximately 6500 rpm, mostly street driving and a little racing.

This is a 10 to 1 compression motor. Any information you want to know about it I would be glad to answer. I haven't listed it here to save space.

Back to my question. Everything except the rear main seems awfully tight to me. If it was a small-block Chevy I would probably not run it. But as I have been told, this is a Mopar and I need to think of it in those terms. In your experience, can 360s be run this tight given my operating range and engine set up? I'm still thinking about a high-volume oil pump, but maybe thinner oil than I normally run. Maybe 10w30. I don't know what the rod clearances are yet. I will when I get them back. I don't think they make 9 thousandths under bearings for Mopars. Do you guys think this is an acceptable spec in this case? If not, what do you recommend? Would getting Federal-Mogul bearings and mixing them with the Clevites possibly help change the clearances a little. I've heard that polishing the crank to slightly open up the clearance may not keep the crank journals round. The crank has been freshly machined .010/.010 under and the front 4 main bearing journals are miking out exactly the same.

The machine shop said the crankshaft line bore was good. Do you think it's time to take this to another machine shop and have it line bored and put studs in the same time?

Have you had a successful engine in the past with clearances like mine?
 
Hi guys. You guys have been a lot of help and I appreciate it very much. I don't like starting another post so quickly but I need your advice.

I began to do the initial blueprint to my 360 such as mock-up and checking bearing clearances and the first thing I found was the machine shop had pressed my pistons onto the rods backwards. I understand mistakes happen but this is a pretty amateur mistake and it makes me wonder what else they may have missed. So I took them to another machine shop to have them pressed off and assembled correctly. And hopefully not destroy my pins or my pistons in the process.

Anyway, the main bearing clearance is coming up as high as .0026" on the rear main, #3 and 4 were about 2.4, and the tightest being number 2 main at 2.0 to 2.1. The #2 main bearings showed a little tracking after turning the crank with the caps torqued up. We switched bearing shells from the #2 main to the #1 main and vice versa. #1 main went from 2.3 or 2.4 down to 2.1 or 2.2 and #2 main still close to the same at 2.1 or 2.0. This is after measuring at different ambient temperatures and several times. Also, both get about .0001 smaller from front back on each main. I have full groove p-series main bearings. The thrust is about 3.5 and the crank seems to turn smoothly. I'll know the rod clearance when I get them back. This engine is going to red line at approximately 6500 rpm, mostly street driving and a little racing.

This is a 10 to 1 compression motor. Any information you want to know about it I would be glad to answer. I haven't listed it here to save space.

Back to my question. Everything except the rear main seems awfully tight to me. If it was a small-block Chevy I would probably not run it. But as I have been told, this is a Mopar and I need to think of it in those terms. In your experience, can 360s be run this tight given my operating range and engine set up? I'm still thinking about a high-volume oil pump, but maybe thinner oil than I normally run. Maybe 10w30. I don't know what the rod clearances are yet. I will when I get them back. I don't think they make 9 thousandths under bearings for Mopars. Do you guys think this is an acceptable spec in this case? If not, what do you recommend? Would getting Federal-Mogul bearings and mixing them with the Clevites possibly help change the clearances a little. I've heard that polishing the crank to slightly open up the clearance may not keep the crank journals round. The crank has been freshly machined .010/.010 under and the front 4 main bearing journals are miking out exactly the same.

The machine shop said the crankshaft line bore was good. Do you think it's time to take this to another machine shop and have it line bored and put studs in the same time?

Have you had a successful engine in the past with clearances like mine?

You need to get on HUGHS website and read about oil clearances.
I wanted my 440/505 to have around .003 , like the hemi`s I used to have, but came in around .0022- .0025, I did have one tite and put a .001 oversize bearing on the #1 rod , which brought it up to the same as the rest. I have a hi volume oil pump , 8 qt pan , and have run 10w40 and 20w50 in it with no problems . Think I`ll go with the liter weight tho.
These clearances aint that bad for a mostly street car .
 
If the machine shop you used mounted the pistons on the rods wrong, I wouldn’t trust any thing else they did or told you. Gotta by right if twisting 6500 or over. Just my opinion. Good luck with the engine!
 
Grab a service manual and review the specs on clearances. Start there and not opinions of people.

If you don’t trust your machine shop then find a new machine shop and start over from square one. Don’t trust what you don’t understand. Too much money and time goes into building engines to just “wing it.”
 
Question: What clearance did you want? I have never heard that polishing would make things particularly out of round and have polished to get an extra .0005" clearance when I wanted. Besides, a turned crank is going to have a tolerance on the roundness that is something other than .0000". I personally would not be bothered with what you have, but don't know the application that you intend. (I've raced a couple of 4 cylinder rally car engine types with those clearances for 1000's of miles turning 6500-8000+ with nary an issue, but they weren't SBM's....)

Switch to synthetic oil after a reasonable break-in and don't worry about it if you are turning in the 1-1.2 HP per ci.....the protection that synthetics offers to bearings is pretty amazing.

Is there a reason to run the full groove mains here?
 
I hate to say this, but, I would go this route myself, actually, I have gone this route. Take all of your stuff and bring it to the new machinist for inspection and tell him your plan is 6500 shift points. Also that you want tight clearances. Tighter clearances reduce the need for thicker oil. As an example, modern cars run very tight specs and suggest very low oil weights. My son-in-laws Subaru sport ride with a boxstser engine runs W0-20 weight. You also don’t need a high volume oil pump.

I will say spinning past 6500, you should consider oiling mods. Enlarge the feeds everywhere. Starting with the oil holes to the valve train.

Let the machinist start from scratch and line bone the block and recheck the crank. I know this is expensive but skipping the expensive re donof bad machine work only has you spending twice. Once to do it wrong and wreck good parts and a second time to repurchase the destroyed parts and machine everything again.
 
Grab a service manual and review the specs on clearances. Start there and not opinions of people.

If you don’t trust your machine shop then find a new machine shop and start over from square one. Don’t trust what you don’t understand. Too much money and time goes into building engines to just “wing it.”

I wouldn`t trust any machine shop, u should check everything anyway .
 
Pistons on backwards?

As long as there isn’t much variation in piston or bore sizing, you can just swap the pistons/rods side to side, if you want the rod chamfer, piston notch orientation “correct”.

Having them on backwards is an old racing trick anyway.
Put 1 in 2, 2 in 1, etc.
Supposedly reduces the skirt loading from the pin offset(which is only there to reduce noise at cold start up).

If the issue is race type pistons and the valve notches....... that’s a different story.

What pistons are you working with?
 
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I would have run flat top type pistons flipped around but the pistons are special order dished pistons. Long story but my cylinder head choice changed and I didn't want to get higher than 10 to 1 compression with crappy ethanol California 91 octane gas so I ended up going with dished pistons.

I wasn't sure what bearing clearances I was looking for but I I was thinking it was going to be in the 2 and 1/2 to 3 thoundths range. The service manuals I have show minimum bearing clearance around 8 ten thousands and maximum 1.5 or 1.8 or something. I forget exactly. I definitely am not looking for that. At least for a higher horsepower motor that was going to get leaned on. I'm running full groove main bearings because the machinist insisted he buy them. I didn't know what he got until the other day. I've done a lot of searching on this forum and it seems that a lot of people are fine with full groove mains on Mopars.

Using the advice already given to me on this forum, I'm not going use my Chevy experience because this is a Mopar and I have a lot to learn.

Most machine shops around here that are left are race engine shops and they are backed up for months. And money talks and those are the guys that seem to get their stuff done first . The machine shop my engine was at managed to get my stuff done in about 6 months. Just not done right.

I appreciate your time you spend answering my questions and I have taken a lot of your advice. And it has worked.

As it stands now, I've got my pistons and rods at another shop and I'm hoping they'll expedite it. I might have them line bore the block to try to get the clearances in line. I did read the Hughes article and 1 take away I got was that 2.2 thousands is about minimum in their opinion. They also didn't like anything too wide.

Maybe the number 2 main at .002" or so is okay but it's also the second to last main bearing getting oil. I'm pretty sure the crank is straight. For some reason we forgot to do a run out check on the crank last night but the first 4 main bearing journals on it are so consistent we can't find a difference on them with the mic.

One of the marks of a knowledgeable engine builder on a budget build up, if there is such thing nowadays, is knowing what works and what won't, when things are not ideal. Hopefully I can get back to that stage now with Mopars.

If the block doesn't get line bored either because of budget or because the new machinist says not to, I'll probably buy another set of bearings and try to mix and match. If I can get it to 2.2 thousands I would be happy. In reading your replies I get the impression that a lot of you are okay with the 2 or 2.1 thousandths clearance. But not okay with the machine shop!
 
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Stock stroke 360+.030, with an 18cc dish and you’re at 10:1?

Heads would have to be about 54cc if you’re using a .040 gasket and zero deck.
 
The heads are still at the shop getting set up. It's supposed to be at zero deck, I'll find out for sure when I get the parts back. .038" gasket. Trying to remember gasket volume. 57 or 58 cc's gave me 9.9 to 1. That was using an online compression ratio calculator. When we did it long hand it was about a tenth of a point lower. I just need the final size of my chambers and I'll know for sure.
 
I was originally going to run the factory heads and port them. They were 596 castings. After having discussions with several people about doing some serious port work on them, I seemed to be money ahead by buying bare performer RPM heads. I sent them to a shop to be set up and ported. Pretty sure the chambers can be brought down to the required size with those heads. Pushrods are going to be custom and the intake won't fit without some work. Not worried about that. More worried about whether the heads can perform as well as I want them to. There just aren't that many good options for small-block Mopars that don't get into some serious money. I considered used W2 heads, but I couldn't find headers would work for my Duster. I looked at cast-iron Hughes heads but they've been out of stock for a while. I've read about the Trick Flow heads but they never seemed to materialize. So I decided on the Edelbrock heads. I don't think 10 to 1 will be a problem. My last car was 13 to 1 and if I wanted to go anywhere I always had to carry cans of race gas in the trunk.
 
Grab a service manual and review the specs on clearances. Start there and not opinions of people.

If you don’t trust your machine shop then find a new machine shop and start over from square one. Don’t trust what you don’t understand. Too much money and time goes into building engines to just “wing it.”

I would agree on the first part but the OP isn't building an engine to factory specs...

@Small Block Duster what I highly recommend would answer a lot of your questions and fill you in on a lot of details about Mopar engines is to grab one of the Mopar Performance Engine manuals. I have one that covers all the V-8s up to and including the Magnum small blocks as well as the slant-6 and some other oddball ones (3.3/3.8L minivan V-6). My book is part number P5249704 and I got it new only about 6-7 years ago, I believe they are still in print.

Here's a quote from said book on crank bearing clearances from the small-block section: "All Chrysler Corporation engines used for racing should have at least .0015" crankshaft-to-bearing clearance. Crankshaft bearing clearances over .003" are undesirable because of increased engine oil demand."

Based on that I'd think you're fine there, would definitely still check everything over though.
 
@MopaR&D, thank you. I've been looking for that book ever since I saw it at the machine shop. They treat that book like it's irreplaceable. I thought it was out of print. I'll start looking for it. If I can't find it new, I'll try to find it used. Thank you for the part number and for the bearing info.
 
@MopaR&D, thank you. I've been looking for that book ever since I saw it at the machine shop. They treat that book like it's irreplaceable. I thought it was out of print. I'll start looking for it. If I can't find it new, I'll try to find it used. Thank you for the part number and for the bearing info.

IIRC I actually bought mine off Mancini manciniracing.com

EDIT: looks like they may actually be out of print I don't see the full Engines book or Chassis manual that sucks. You might have to go with Amazon
 
Pistons on backwards?

As long as there isn’t much variation in piston or bore sizing, you can just swap the pistons/rods side to side, if you want the rod chamfer, piston notch orientation “correct”.

Having them on backwards is an old racing trick anyway.
Put 1 in 2, 2 in 1, etc.
Supposedly reduces the skirt loading from the pin offset(which is only there to reduce noise at cold start up).

If the issue is race type pistons and the valve notches....... that’s a different story.

What pistons are you working with?

Pressing pistons on backwards is an old racing trick for dead stock pistons. The pin bore in stock pistons is off center to make the engine quieter. Reversing them actually frees up a little power by reducing friction and loads but at the expense of a little piston slap.

However, performance pistons have the pin centered, so unless he is running a stock or stock replacement piston, pressing them on backwards will do nothing for performance.
 
I was originally going to run the factory heads and port them. They were 596 castings. After having discussions with several people about doing some serious port work on them, I seemed to be money ahead by buying bare performer RPM heads. I sent them to a shop to be set up and ported. Pretty sure the chambers can be brought down to the required size with those heads. Pushrods are going to be custom and the intake won't fit without some work. Not worried about that. More worried about whether the heads can perform as well as I want them to. There just aren't that many good options for small-block Mopars that don't get into some serious money. I considered used W2 heads, but I couldn't find headers would work for my Duster. I looked at cast-iron Hughes heads but they've been out of stock for a while. I've read about the Trick Flow heads but they never seemed to materialize. So I decided on the Edelbrock heads. I don't think 10 to 1 will be a problem. My last car was 13 to 1 and if I wanted to go anywhere I always had to carry cans of race gas in the trunk.
FWIW;
W2 headers from TTI will fit but there pricey.
Otherwise I would look to Hedman headers for W2 headers. A little more pricey than TTI but there also straight and stepped in various sizes.
 
@rumblefish360 It's good to know that somebody does make headers for those W-2 heads without having to go full custom. As it is I'll have to hope my performer RPMs have enough work on them to run well. My budget is getting destroyed on this build so I'm having to cut corners where I can. Read that as spend money wisely... I'd like to run the TTI chassis headers for a bodies but I don't have the money for them. I have 5901 Hooker competition headers. I've read a lot about these on this forum and almost none of it good.
 
You can do very well with the Edelbrock heads. Engine wise, after a solid short block, the heads/valve train is where you spend your money.

A better header is always a good bet but depending on your target goal, you can skimp on headers and still be OK. The average 1-5/8 header can take you pretty far. I know they suck for installation and ground clearance but there cheap by comparison to TTI. And a simple Jegs/Summit exhaust kit (with or without mufflers) and a “H” pipe is an easy install well worth the price and effort.

The biggest problem with the header companies is quality control IMO. Not to mention no design update on the ill fitting 50 year old design that has 3 tubes under the steering linkage that has to come apart to install the headers. Super annoying!

This is where TTI and Doug’s headers come into play as a favorite. And at a price.

As of right now, just get your short block squared away righteously. Worry about the rest later. No sense putting the horse before the car. Once your short block is done, then you proceed to the next thing on the list. Knock’em down one at a time.
 
I'd not worry over that 1 tighter main bearing, but if I did, a bit of crank polish will do. I've polished almost .001" with no issues. And since the full groove mains ought to use more oil, then I would want less mains clearance. For an engine of this power, IMHO few .0001" is not going to change anything.
 
You can do very well with the Edelbrock heads. Engine wise, after a solid short block, the heads/valve train is where you spend your money.

A better header is always a good bet but depending on your target goal, you can skimp on headers and still be OK. The average 1-5/8 header can take you pretty far. I know they suck for installation and ground clearance but there cheap by comparison to TTI. And a simple Jegs/Summit exhaust kit (with or without mufflers) and a “H” pipe is an easy install well worth the price and effort.

The biggest problem with the header companies is quality control IMO. Not to mention no design update on the ill fitting 50 year old design that has 3 tubes under the steering linkage that has to come apart to install the headers. Super annoying!

This is where TTI and Doug’s headers come into play as a favorite. And at a price.

As of right now, just get your short block squared away righteously. Worry about the rest later. No sense putting the horse before the car. Once your short block is done, then you proceed to the next thing on the list. Knock’em down one at a time.
Thank you. The headers have been on my mind as of late. After going through all the work, the last thing I want is to have to replace header gaskets when they fail. I'm going to find which tool works best for the header bolts and keep that with me in the car at all times. I've had some people recommend copper header gaskets, but personally I've had bad luck with them. My last street driven car was built with a bunch of circle track parts and I had Schoenfeld stock car headers. The $2 Schoenfeld gaskets were the best header gaskets I've ever used..
 
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