Oil mods for my 408?

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74360duster

JEREMY
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I'm building a internally balanced 408. Pump gas aluminum headed motor. Gonna be over 600hp.
Is there any oil mods you all would recommend I do before assembly and machining.
 
Go to the SEARCH feature,type in Oil Mods then select the Small block forum.Guitar Jones has a thread on the oil mods.Good luck.
 
Rather than horsepower - you need to know the peak rpms it needs to live at.
 
I have heard that AMC lifters and oil through push rods as well as rocker shafts will keep push rod tips and top end well lubed. I think you would need to run some type of restrictor on the lifter galley to not over oil tips/ lose pressure in other areas. For the rest w2360Duster calls it out. I am going to do this on a 360 I got with roller rockers non-cup pushrods. for the lower end I am just going to use a HV pump and 6-7 qt pan.
 
I think you will be hard pressed to find lifters thst don't oil through the pushrod.

If you don't want them to just get push rods that don't have tge oiling hole in the ends.
 
AMC lifters can oil through the pushrods. You just need hollow pushrods. You can use the AMC pushrods with no ill effects with standard non oiling pushrods. No mods needed.
The stock oil passage ways are good for 6000 rpm easy. Pushing past it starts to get dicey depending on how it is equipped and the internal passages are like. I have not ever had a problem @ 6500. I have had a problem @ 6800.
 
Good info rumblefish360. I do not plan on over 6k operation so this sounds perfect for my application.
 
For 6K rpm all you need to do is deburr the lifter valley, drill a couple of extra drain holes where the webbing allows and deburr those drainback holes, and enlarge the oil feeds from the right cam galley to the main bearing bores. If you're running a solid roller, have the lifter bores bushed, and you're good to go.
 
moper said:
For 6K rpm all you need to do is deburr the lifter valley, drill a couple of extra drain holes where the webbing allows and deburr those drainback holes, and enlarge the oil feeds from the right cam galley to the main bearing bores. If you're running a solid roller, have the lifter bores bushed, and you're good to go.
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^^^^ This is what I did on my last build (bushed the lifter bores)
 
been dealing with mike from mrl performance. my motor will be shifted at around 6300-6500rpm. will be over 600hp on pump gas
the roller lifters he sells do not require the lifter bores to be bushed. and i am running a solid roller lunati cam.I have already debured the lifter valley and drain back holes.
 
I know what Mike designed his lifters for - there are more reasons to bush than oil pressure leakage. A milder engine they are a good reason not to because normally the budget is tight. But - if this engine is going to be raced, and is going to run a solid roller cam, the lifter bores should be bushed. In addition to properly controling oil pressure leakage aroudn the lifters at any position, bushing corrects factory geometry that is as good as the accuracy of the deck heights (assuming you know how bad those are) and in the event of valve train failure the bushings allow the lower end to remain intact because they don't allow the oil to flow out the lifter bore when the roller lifter kicks out. Break a rocker at 5K rpm and the lifter come out - by the time you realize the engine's missing and get the car in nuetral and the engine off - the lower end's already suffered damage from no oil. If your budget is $9K we're talking about $500 or less than 6% of the engine budget. I have the utmost respect for Mike, and Brian who also came up with drop in lifters - but I believe it's foolish and irresponsible for the builder not to spend that when the risk is that high of more damage.
 
Proper percausions for the build for proper useage.
 
moper said:
I know what Mike designed his lifters for - there are more reasons to bush than oil pressure leakage. A milder engine they are a good reason not to because normally the budget is tight. But - if this engine is going to be raced, and is going to run a solid roller cam, the lifter bores should be bushed. In addition to properly controling oil pressure leakage aroudn the lifters at any position, bushing corrects factory geometry that is as good as the accuracy of the deck heights (assuming you know how bad those are) and in the event of valve train failure the bushings allow the lower end to remain intact because they don't allow the oil to flow out the lifter bore when the roller lifter kicks out. Break a rocker at 5K rpm and the lifter come out - by the time you realize the engine's missing and get the car in nuetral and the engine off - the lower end's already suffered damage from no oil. If your budget is $9K we're talking about $500 or less than 6% of the engine budget. I have the utmost respect for Mike, and Brian who also came up with drop in lifters - but I believe it's foolish and irresponsible for the builder not to spend that when the risk is that high of more damage.
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Foolish and irresponsible? So how do you pushrod oil TD or Jesel rockers if needed or desired with solid lifter bores? I guess EVERY wet lifter bore out there should be ashamed....
The only way a sb roller lifter is coming out is CATASTROPHIC FAILURE of the valve train so don't worry about losing oil pressure. The paired lifters would almost have to come apart from each other AND have the pushrods leave with a lot of rpm in between all of this.
If your having problems with lifters coming out and NEED to bush bores for this reason then something else is horribly wrong!

Bushing lifter bores is mainly to correct bore geometry, allow larger lobe lifts, tighten lifter to bore clearance, raise the bores with the bushings to allow more lobe lift, and IF so desired to eliminate oil to the lifter although not recommended IMO.
Other reasons to bush lifter bores is to get rid of damage to the bores, and to change size of the bores.
Sorry for the rant, but I don't like being affiliated with foolish and irresponsible...I think anyone who really know's anything about performance engine building would agree.

Brian
 
Sorry - this might be a little wordy...
Brian - yes - by my opinion foolish and irresponsible and I was certain I'd hear about it from pros. I welcome your response and I said - I have the utmost respect for your work but our opinons have differed on other things befoer and i'm sure will again. I've fixed enough pro work to not worry about opinions that differ and I don't mind taking it on the chin for mine.
To address your points -
"how do you pushrod oil TD or Jesel rockers if needed or desired". I personally don't need to or have ever had any desire to. If I did have a need for such equipment due to expected power level and use - the block would not be factory and would have priority oiling so that would be a moot point. There are other ways to skin the cat - but I assumed the OP is talking a factory block and LA based heads and the general public makes similar assumptions regularly.
" The paired lifters would almost have to come apart from each other AND have the pushrods leave with a lot of rpm in between all of this." Just so we're talking the same numbers... A lifter gets hit by the lobe 50 times a second at 6K. Assuming the racer needs about two seconds to notice the failure, shift out of gear or hit the clutch, and cut the power and then another second or two for the engine to stop turning - that's somewhere around 200 lift events as the rest of the valvetrain works while the crank stops turning. That all takes place in under 5 seconds and the oil pressure is gone as soon as one lifter exposes the galley. What sort of time and rpm are you thinking exists here? I'll also clarify - I say "popped a lifter" but you know the reality is the lifter only needs to come up to where the roller notch clears the oil galley. It doesn't have to come out of the bore. I have seen when the intakes were removed. In one case link had twisted and the only part of the lifter in the bore was the roller. A second was a lifter failure that we believe was caused by high street mileage and no inspection or rebuild. The lower part of the lifter came apart probably on the opening ramp. The body came down on the closing ramp losing the pushrod, and then the body got pulled up and out when the exhaust lifter was on it's opneing ramp. At least that was the consensus.
As for why I feel the way I do - over the years I have watched 3 out of around 15 solid roller cam engines have this failure. These were 2 small blocks and one big. All three "popped" one or the pair of lifters (Comp's & Isky) out far enough to totally uncover the oil galley and the lower ends were damaged heavilly by lack of oil. I'm sure you realize the lifter doesn't have to come out for that to happen as you designed a set to combat just such an occurance. I was at the track when they failed and in one case helped push the car off the line when the engine was made to run with a spare rocker for the next round. None of them were built or owned by me and all of them had big price tags. The few solid rollers I have in service (all customers') have not experienced a failure. So as of now I have no other point of reference. I rather like that position but you are correct in that it is limited.
If the arguement is "this ALMOST NEVER happens" and it's not your $12K-15K and you're at peace with the risk than you're 100% right. For my part - I'm not ok with that.
 
moper said:
Sorry - this might be a little wordy...
Brian - yes - by my opinion foolish and irresponsible and I was certain I'd hear about it from pros. I welcome your response and I said - I have the utmost respect for your work but our opinons have differed on other things befoer and i'm sure will again. I've fixed enough pro work to not worry about opinions that differ and I don't mind taking it on the chin for mine.
To address your points -
"how do you pushrod oil TD or Jesel rockers if needed or desired". I personally don't need to or have ever had any desire to. If I did have a need for such equipment due to expected power level and use - the block would not be factory and would have priority oiling so that would be a moot point. There are other ways to skin the cat - but I assumed the OP is talking a factory block and LA based heads and the general public makes similar assumptions regularly.
" The paired lifters would almost have to come apart from each other AND have the pushrods leave with a lot of rpm in between all of this." Just so we're talking the same numbers... A lifter gets hit by the lobe 50 times a second at 6K. Assuming the racer needs about two seconds to notice the failure, shift out of gear or hit the clutch, and cut the power and then another second or two for the engine to stop turning - that's somewhere around 200 lift events as the rest of the valvetrain works while the crank stops turning. That all takes place in under 5 seconds and the oil pressure is gone as soon as one lifter exposes the galley. What sort of time and rpm are you thinking exists here? I'll also clarify - I say "popped a lifter" but you know the reality is the lifter only needs to come up to where the roller notch clears the oil galley. It doesn't have to come out of the bore. I have seen when the intakes were removed. In one case link had twisted and the only part of the lifter in the bore was the roller. A second was a lifter failure that we believe was caused by high street mileage and no inspection or rebuild. The lower part of the lifter came apart probably on the opening ramp. The body came down on the closing ramp losing the pushrod, and then the body got pulled up and out when the exhaust lifter was on it's opneing ramp. At least that was the consensus.
As for why I feel the way I do - over the years I have watched 3 out of around 15 solid roller cam engines have this failure. These were 2 small blocks and one big. All three "popped" one or the pair of lifters (Comp's & Isky) out far enough to totally uncover the oil galley and the lower ends were damaged heavilly by lack of oil. I'm sure you realize the lifter doesn't have to come out for that to happen as you designed a set to combat just such an occurance. I was at the track when they failed and in one case helped push the car off the line when the engine was made to run with a spare rocker for the next round. None of them were built or owned by me and all of them had big price tags. The few solid rollers I have in service (all customers') have not experienced a failure. So as of now I have no other point of reference. I rather like that position but you are correct in that it is limited.
If the arguement is "this ALMOST NEVER happens" and it's not your $12K-15K and you're at peace with the risk than you're 100% right. For my part - I'm not ok with that.
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Like I said earlier, if the lifters ever come out it'll be because of valvetrain failure and it won't matter if you lose oil pressure. Your not going to break through the oil film by losing some oil psi.
And if this happens you don't have to worry about shutting the engine down...it's going to do that all on it's own!

This is why good quality valve train parts are a must...in any build IMO. Solid roller needs good rockers...and not HS's!!
Your choice of words I feel were off the mark. I'm not trying to argue with you, more so just point out the facts and the why's of things done.

Lifters should not be coming out of the bores. Period. And busing bores to help keep oil pressure if they do...is completely wrong. Has this happened to you a lot?
 
Got you on the word choice. Maybe it's the steroids I'm on for my lungs - next time I'll choose more carefully.
You asked if I had that problem - no - never. My engines don't break rockers, don't break pushrods, don't break shafts, and I've never had lobe failure issues with flat tappets. You might try re-reading post 17. The examples I noted are first hand but as I noted were not built by or owned by me. They all failed at the track either during competition, test and tune day, or retal day (one each). I was present for the breakage and when they were opened up on their respective days.

"Lifters should not be coming out of the bores. Period."
I agree 100%. Cranks should never break, rods should never exit a block, and yet they do during certain failures not related to them. I build for that possibility because I've seen it more than once and because there are other reasons (power & valvetrain stability) to do it. The last valvetrain failure I personally had was in 1991 when I had a few pushrods bend and one punch through a factory rocker on a mild hydraulic cam 440. My setups have evolved over the years and since then I've never had a valvetrain failure with an engine I've built.

"...busing bores to help keep oil pressure if they do...is completely wrong."
this is your opinion and I'm sure there are others that share it. I disagree and I'm certain we'll both continue to do and recommend what we believe is best.
 
w2360Duster said:
And his motor expired real quick, just deburr the block and run it.
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My engine expired from my own miscalculation of compression ratio. It was supposed to be 12.3 to 1 but was in actuality 14.7 to 1 resulting in blowing out a head gasket and then detonating a cylinder to death. The rest of the engines oiling system and bearings still looked great. So I guess the lesson here is to know what you're talking about before you start making assumptions.
 
thanks for all your input guys. i am patiently awaiting my main studs so i can send my 71 block off to be line honed, decked, bored and torque plate honed. i have deburred the lifter valley and drain back holes already and gone ahead and cleaned all the bolt holes in the block. i have ordered my heads, rotating assembly, lifters, cam, studs, bolts, and windage tray from mike at mrl performance. still to come is getting my hughes rockers ordered from mike and deciding what balancer to go with that is sfi but cost effective.
 
Guitar Jones said:
My engine expired from my own miscalculation of compression ratio. It was supposed to be 12.3 to 1 but was in actuality 14.7 to 1 resulting in blowing out a head gasket and then detonating a cylinder to death. The rest of the engines oiling system and bearings still looked great. So I guess the lesson here is to know what you're talking about before you start making assumptions.
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I was hoping you were going to defend yourself and elaborate on what actually happened to the engine. Did you end up replacing the engine?
 
71Scamper said:
I was hoping you were going to defend yourself and elaborate on what actually happened to the engine. Did you end up replacing the engine?
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X2
I too would like to here the hole story.
 
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