OIL OIL LAB TESTING What does it all mean??

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aktattoo

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Quaker State’s New “Defy” Motor Oil – Lab Test and Wear Test Data
This synthetic blend motor oil costs $5.29 per quart at Pep Boys. So, it is roughly half the price of a name brand, top of the line, full synthetic motor oil.

Some info/claims on the bottle:
** For high mileage engines with over 75,000 miles
** Boosted zinc for extra protection
** Prevents up to 98% of future wear
** Protects high wear surfaces while still being friendly to catalytic converters and other emissions equipment
** Has seal swell to preserve worn and leaking seals
** Made by Pennzoil-Quaker State Company

Here are the results of the Lab Test, which was done by ALS Tribology (formerly Staveley Labs) in Sparks, Nevada:

Quaker State 10W30 Defy, API SL synthetic blend (lab tested 2012)
NOTE: An API SL rating is for 2004 and older automotive engines. This rating was replaced by the API SM rating at the end of November 2004, when the 2005 models were already available.

Silicon = 3 ppm (anti-foaming agent in new oil, but in used oil, certain gasket materials and dirt can also add to this number)
Boron = 170 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)
Magnesium = 8 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)
Calcium = 2652 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)
Barium = 0 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)
Total detergent/dispersant (anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge) = 2830 ppm
Zinc = 1221 ppm (anti-wear)
Phos = 955 ppm (anti-wear)
Moly = 99 ppm (anti-wear)
Total anti-wear = 2275 ppm
Potassium = 4 ppm (anti-freeze corrosion inhibitor)
Sodium = 0 ppm (anti-freeze corrosion inhibitor)
TBN = 6.5 (Total Base Number is an acid neutralizer to prevent corrosion. Most gasoline engine motor oils start with TBN around 8 or 9. And in use, this becomes depleted over time as mileage accumulates)
Viscosity (cSt at 100*C) = 11.7 (cSt range for SAE 30 is 9.3 to 12.4) And cSt (centistokes) in general terms, represents an oil’s thickness

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Here you can compare the new Defy motor oil above, to Quaker State’s top of the line mainstream motor oil for new vehicles:

Quaker State 5W30 Ultimate Durability, API SN synthetic (lab tested 2011)
Silicon = 3 ppm (anti-foaming agent in new oil, but in used oil, certain gasket materials and dirt can also add to this number)
Boron = <5 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)
Magnesium = 10 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)
Calcium = 2831 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)
Barium = 0 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)
Total detergent/dispersant (anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge) = 2845 ppm
Zinc = 877 ppm (anti-wear)
Phos = 921 ppm (anti-wear)
Moly = 72 ppm (anti-wear)
Total anti-wear = 1870 ppm
Potassium = <5 ppm (anti-freeze corrosion inhibitor)
Sodium = 0 ppm (anti-freeze corrosion inhibitor)
TBN = 7.9 (Total Base Number is an acid neutralizer to prevent corrosion. Most gasoline engine motor oils start with TBN around 8 or 9. And in use, this becomes depleted over time as mileage accumulates)
Viscosity (cSt at 100*C) = 10.5 (cSt range for SAE 30 is 9.3 to 12.4) And cSt (centistokes) in general terms, represents an oil’s thickness

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Let’s compare the wear protection capability of these two oils above, by looking at how their “wear test” results came out. But first, here’s some info about that oil “wear testing”, just so that everyone is on the same page. The wear testing is a motor oil friction test under load, which subjects the oil to stresses beyond what it will see in an actual running engine. That way you can separate outstanding oils from ordinary oils without having to wait for 100,000 miles to see what happened.

The oil wear test is also what you might call a blind test, in that the test equipment does not know what oil it is testing, it just tests them all head to head. It doesn’t care what brand the oil is. It doesn’t care if it is a modern API certified low zinc oil or an older type traditional high zinc oil. It doesn’t care about how much detergent is in the oil. It doesn’t care what the Lab Test print out shows. All it cares about is the size of the wear scar generated. The smaller the scar, the better the oil protected against wear, and the higher the psi value.

You might even say that the oil wear testing is somewhat like a ¼ mile pass, in that, in making a pass, all that matters is the time you put up on the board, which shows up on your time slip. The clock doesn’t care if you are running a GM, Ford or Mopar. It doesn’t care what your engine’s build sheet says, and it doesn’t even care about what your dyno print out says. It only cares about the performance you can lay down.

In heads up racing, the quickest ET wins, no matter what (ignoring any reaction time differences of course). GM, Ford or Mopar, it just doesn’t matter. It’s simply the real deal, no matter what anyone expected. And that is why we run the races for real, rather than just looking at spec sheets.

And in head to head, or call it heads up oil wear testing, the smallest wear scar wins, no matter what. High zinc or low zinc, it just doesn’t matter. It’s simply the real deal, no matter what anyone expected. And that is why I test the oil for real, rather than just looking at spec sheets.

The oil wear test equipment and test procedure used, have shown that some “high zinc” oils were outstanding, while some “high zinc” oils were not. So, it makes no sense to say that high zinc oils will always produce outstanding results and always provide excellent protection, when some DO NOT.

The testing has also shown that some modern “low zinc” API certified oils were outstanding, while some “low zinc” oils were not. So, it makes no sense to say that low zinc oils cannot produce outstanding results, when some DO produce outstanding results right before your eyes. And believe me, I was as surprised as anyone else, that modern API oils could be so good.

So, that proves to me, that the oil companies are no dummies, and that they absolutely know what they are doing. And it has been common knowledge for years in the oil industry, that alternate chemistry is available that provides as good or better wear protection than zinc/phos (the use depends on cost and application requirements). And that alternate chemistry is just what they use in modern oils in order to reduce the zinc/phos levels and meet the necessary requirements. Few things in this world are limited to a single way of doing things. And motor oil additives are no different.

So, if you didn’t perform actual real world dynamic “wear testing”, you would never know the true story about what oils are outstanding, and what oils are only ordinary. But, as for the modern “low zinc” API certified oils tested, I did only test mostly newer API SN oils, and a few API SM oils. So, I can’t speak for how good or bad the older low zinc oils may have been. Perhaps those older reduced zinc oils were not all that great, and may have been where the reduced zinc oils got their bad reputation.

But, flat tappet lobe/lifter failures still do crop up here and there, even in correctly built motors, and even with high zinc oils being used. That would indicate that the failures occur because of poor parts quality rather than because of the oil being used, or because of the build quality.

And as a further example of oil not being an issue with flat tappet cams, consider this. I have a Hotrodder buddy with a heavy foot, who has a ’69, 4 speed ‘Vette daily driver. He is running a solid flat tappet, 500 HP, 383ci SBC motor in it. He’s run that motor for several years now, and has over 25,000 miles on it, with absolutely no lobe/lifter issues what so ever.

And the oil he uses is ……………………..plain old conventional, low zinc, API certified 5W30 Castrol GTX dino oil. And that oil produced a “load carrying capacity/film strength” of 95,392 psi in my wear testing. Ranking it an impressive 18th out of the 48 oils I’ve wear tested, putting it in the OUTSTANDING PROTECTION category. So, this is a perfect example of a real running flat tappet engine that is perfectly happy on low zinc oil (830 ppm in the API SN version and 888 ppm in the API SM version), which reflects exactly what my testing has shown.

“Lab Testing” and “Wear Testing” analysis shows that extra zinc does NOT provide EXTRA protection, it only provides LONGER protection. And this is not a new discovery at all. In fact, for what it’s worth, Ed Hackett wrote an article some years ago, titled “More than you ever wanted to know about Motor Oil”. And in that article he says the exact same thing, so it’s been well known for a long time. You can Google his article if you like, and see for yourself.

Keep in mind, zinc levels do NOT hold steady. Zinc is depleted as it is sacrificed to protect highly loaded parts, and is used up over time. High Performance engines will use up zinc faster than stock engines, due to their heavily loaded parts. And that is the real reason that High Performance Oils have higher levels of zinc. Because it is expected that the zinc will be used up at a faster rate in High Performance applications. So, those beloved high zinc levels will NOT stay high, unless you change your oil frequently.

And you can see this drop in zinc (and phos, and moly) for yourself, if you send an oil sample into a reputable lab, before and after use. NOTE: I’m really not trying to do any bashing here, but I’ve had problems with Blackstone Labs providing bogus data in the past, where used oil numbers radically increased, which is physically impossible. They later claimed that they were using some sort of wrong correction factor. But, they never made it clear why they would even use a correction factor in the first place, instead of just reporting what was actually in the oil. Now I simply don’t trust them, so I don’t use them anymore at all.

I now use only ALS Tribology in Sparks, Nevada. I’ve never had an issue with them, so I’d recommend them if you don’t have another favorite lab to use. But, keep in mind, that if you change brands or types of oil, the residual old oil may well contaminate/skew the lab results of the latest oil. So, it would be best to keep using the same oil for at least two changes, before sending in used oil for lab testing, so that you get correct results.

Some of the oil companies have a product line of excellent oils for modern vehicle applications, which meet all the necessary requirements. And then they have another product line of excellent oils for the High Performance and Racing market, which dictates/desires high zinc levels.

However, the Royal Purple guys told me that they don’t actually “need” extra zinc in their High Performance oils, because of their proprietary “Synerlec” additive. And that they consider the extra zinc as only icing on the cake, to meet the market demand.

But, some oil companies just produce a product line for modern vehicle applications, which also works well on High Performance vehicles (as my testing has shown with Castrol oils, for example). It all comes down to the business case for producing dual product lines or not, and how it all affects their bottom line.

But, as for my motor oil wear testing, all oils get the same fair chance at performing as well as they can. And the outcome for any given oil is determined only by the base oil and its additive package “as a whole”. For an oil to produce outstanding results, it has to be an excellent oil, high zinc or not. The results are the real deal, plain and simple. And on top of that, the tests are repeated to ensure accuracy. So, at the end of the day, for better or worse, like it or not, the numbers simply are what they are.

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So finally, let’s take a look at the actual “wear test” data of those two Quaker State oils above. Remember, the higher the psi, the better the wear protection.

The 10W30 Defy, API SL (semi-synthetic) = 90,226 psi “load carrying capacity/film strength”, at 230*F

And the approximate observed temperature at which this oil started to vaporize/smoke, which indicated the onset of thermal breakdown = 260*

The 5W30 Ultimate Durability, API SN (full synthetic) = 95,920 psi “load carrying capacity/film strength”, at 230*F, which is 6.3% higher than the Defy’s capability.

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Now let’s compare the Defy oil to 13 other high zinc oils, which all have between 1100 and 1800 ppm zinc.

I’ve also included detergent levels for reference as well.

All the oils below are full synthetic unless otherwise specified.

The following group of 14 oils are ranked according to their “load carrying capacity/film strength”, or in other words, their “wear protection” performance, at 230*F. The tests were repeated multiple times for each oil, and then those results were averaged to arrive at the final psi numbers shown below. And every single oil was tested EXACTLY THE SAME.

1. 10W30 Valvoline NSL (Not Street Legal) Conventional Racing Oil = 103,846 psi
zinc = 1669 ppm
total detergent = 1618 ppm
detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio = 1.0
NOTE: Due to its very low TBN value, this oil is only suitable for short term racing use, and is not suitable for street use.

2. 10W30 Valvoline VR1 Conventional Racing Oil (silver bottle) = 103,505 psi
(.3% below no.1)
zinc = 1472 ppm
total detergent = 2787 ppm
detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio = 1.9

3. 10W30 Valvoline VR1 Synthetic Racing Oil, API SL (black bottle) = 101,139 psi
(2.6% below no.1)
zinc = 1180 ppm
total detergent = 2683 ppm
detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio = 1.9

4. 10W30 Amsoil Z-Rod Oil = 95,360 psi
(8.2% below no.1)
zinc = 1431 ppm
total detergent = 2927 ppm
detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio =2.0

5. 10W30 Quaker State Defy, API SL (semi-synthetic) = 90,226 psi
(13.1% below no.1)
zinc = 1221 ppm
total detergent = 2830 ppm
detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio =2.3

6. 10W30 Joe Gibbs HR4 Hotrod Oil = 86,270 psi
(16.9% below no.1)
zinc = 1247 ppm
total detergent = 3134 ppm
detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio = 2.5

7. 5W30 Royal Purple XPR (Extreme Performance Racing) = 74,860 psi
(27.9% below no.1)
zinc = 1421 ppm
total detergent = 3050 ppm
detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio = 2.1

8. 15W40 Farm Rated Heavy Duty Performance Diesel, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF/SL, SJ (conventional) = 73,176 psi
(29.5% below no.1)
zinc = 1325ppm
total detergent = 1593 ppm
detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio = 1.2

9. 0W30 Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1 (semi-synthetic) = 71,377 psi
(31.3% below no.1)
zinc = 1621 ppm
total detergent = 2939 ppm
detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio = 1.8

10. 10W30 Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1 (semi-synthetic) = 71,206 psi
(31.4% below no.1)
zinc = 1557 ppm
total detergent = 3173 ppm
detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio = 2.0

11. 15W50 Mobil 1, API SN = 70,235 psi
(32.4% below no.1)
zinc = 1133 ppm
total detergent = 1437 ppm
detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio = 1.3

12. 10W30 Royal Purple HPS (High Performance Street) = 66,211 psi
(36.2% below no.1)
zinc = 1774 ppm
total detergent = 3676 ppm
detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio = 2.1

13. 10W40 Valvoline 4 Stroke Motorcycle Oil conventional, API SJ = 65,553 psi
(36.9% below no.1)
zinc = 1154 ppm
total detergent = 1999 ppm
detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio =1.1

14. Royal Purple 10W30 Break-In Oil conventional = 62,931 psi
(39.4% below no.1)
zinc = 1170 ppm
total detergent = 3184 ppm
detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio = 2.7

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Now, in the interest of full disclosure, let’s compare the new Defy motor oil to “ALL” of the other 47 oils that I have in my database, and see how it ranks against them all.

*** The higher the psi result, the higher the “Load carrying capacity/Film strength”, and the better the oil is at preventing wear.

*** All oils were tested at 230* F (representative of actual running temperature).

*** Multiple tests were performed on each oil, and those results were averaged to arrive at each oil's final value shown below.

*** Test Result differences between oils of less than 10%, are not significant, and oils within that range can be considered approximately equivalent.

*** All oil bottles were thoroughly shaken before the samples were taken. This ensured that all the additive package components were distributed uniformly throughout all the oil in the bottle, and not settled to the bottom.

*** All oils are full synthetic unless otherwise specified.

*** All oils are suitable for street use unless otherwise specified.


Oil categories:

*** Over 90,000 psi = OUTSTANDING protection

*** 75,000 to 90,000 psi = GOOD protection

*** 60,000 to 75,000 psi = MODEST protection

*** Below 60,000 psi = UNDESIREABLE



********** OUTSTANDING PROTECTION ************


1. 5W30 Pennzoil Ultra, API SM = 115,612 psi
I have not been able to find this oil with the latest API SN certification. The bottle says, “No leading synthetic oil provides better wear protection”. For once, a product’s hype turns out to be true.
zinc = 806 ppm
phos = 812 ppm
moly = 66 ppm

2. 10W30 Lucas Racing Only = 106,505 psi
zinc = 2642 ppm
phos = 3489 ppm
moly = 1764 ppm
NOTE: This oil is suitable for short term racing use only, and is not suitable for street use.

3. 5W30 Mobil 1, API SN = 105,875 psi
zinc = 801 ppm
phos = 842 ppm
moly = 112 ppm

4. 0W30 Amsoil Signature Series 25,000 miles, API SN = 105,008 psi
zinc = 824 ppm
phos = 960 ppm
moly = 161 ppm


******* 10% below number 1 = 104,051 psi ********


5. 10W30 Valvoline NSL (Not Street Legal) Conventional Racing Oil = 103,846 psi
zinc = 1669 ppm
phos = 1518 ppm
moly = 784 ppm
NOTE: This oil is suitable for short term racing use only, and is not suitable for street use.

6. 5W50 Motorcraft, API SN = 103,517 psi
zinc = 606 ppm
phos = 742 ppm
moly = 28 ppm

7. 10W30 Valvoline VR1 Conventional Racing Oil (silver bottle) = 103,505 psi
zinc = 1472 ppm
phos = 1544 ppm
moly = 3 ppm

8. 10W30 Valvoline VR1 Synthetic Racing Oil, API SL (black bottle) = 101,139 psi
zinc = 1180 ppm
phos = 1112 ppm
moly = 162 ppm

9. 5W30 Chevron Supreme conventional, API SN = 100,011 psi
This one only costs $4.29 per quart at the Auto Parts Store where I bought it.
zinc = 1018 ppm
phos = 728 ppm
moly = 161 ppm

10. 5W20 Castrol Edge with Titanium, API SN = 99,983 psi
zinc = 1042 ppm
phos = 857 ppm
moly = 100 ppm
titanium = 49 ppm


11. 20W50 Castrol GTX conventional, API SN = 96,514 psi
zinc = 610 ppm
phos = 754 ppm
moly = 94 ppm

12. 30 wt Red Line Race Oil = 96,470 psi
zinc = 2207 ppm
phos = 2052 ppm
moly = 1235 ppm
NOTE: This oil is suitable for short term racing use only, and is not suitable for street use.

13. 0W20 Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy, API SN = 96,364 psi
zinc = 742 ppm
phos = 677 ppm
moly = 81 ppm

14. 5W30 Quaker State Ultimate Durability, API SN = 95,920 psi
zinc = 877 ppm
phos = 921 ppm
moly = 72 ppm

15. 5W30 Castrol Edge with Titanium, API SN = 95,717 psi
zinc = 818 ppm
phos = 883 ppm
moly = 90 ppm
titanium = 44 ppm

16. 10W30 Joe Gibbs XP3 NASCAR Racing Oil = 95,543 psi
zinc = 743 ppm
phos = 802 ppm
moly = 1125 ppm
NOTE: This oil is suitable for short term racing use only, and is not suitable for street use.

17. 5W20 Castrol GTX conventional, API SN = 95,543 psi
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD
NOTE: Oil numbers 16 and 17 were tested weeks apart, but due to the similarities in their wear scar sizes, their averages ended up the same.

18. 5W30 Castrol GTX conventional, API SN = 95,392 psi
zinc = 830 ppm
phos = 791 ppm
moly = 1 ppm

19. 10W30 Amsoil Z-Rod Oil = 95,360 psi
zinc = 1431 ppm
phos = 1441 ppm
moly = 52 ppm

20. 5W30 Valvoline SynPower, API SN = 94,942 psi
zinc = 969 ppm
phos = 761 ppm
moly = 0 ppm

21. 5W30 Valvoline Premium Conventional, API SN = 94,744 psi
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD

22. 5W20 Mobil 1, API SN = 94,663 psi
zinc = 764 ppm
phos = 698 ppm
moly = 76 ppm

23. 5W20 Valvoline SynPower, API SN = 94,460 psi
zinc = 1045 ppm
phos = 742 ppm
moly = 0 ppm

******** 20% below number 1 = 92,490 psi ********

24. 5W30 Lucas conventional, API SN = 92,073 psi
zinc = 992 ppm
phos = 760 ppm
moly = 0 ppm

25. 5W30 O'Reilly (house brand) conventional, API SN = 91,433 psi
This one only costs $3.99 per quart at the Auto Parts Store where I bought it.
zinc = 863 ppm
phos = 816 ppm
moly = 0 ppm

26. 5W30 Red Line, API SN = 91,028 psi
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD

27. 5W20 Royal Purple API SN = 90,434 psi
zinc = 964 ppm
phos = 892 ppm
moly = 0 ppm

28. 10W30 Quaker State Defy, API SL (semi-synthetic) = 90,226 psi
zinc = 1221 ppm
phos = 955 ppm
moly = 99 ppm

29. 5W20 Valvoline Premium Conventional, API SN = 90,144 psi
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD


************ GOOD PROTECTION **********


30. 30 wt Castrol Heavy Duty conventional, API SM = 88,089 psi
zinc = 907 ppm
phos = 829 ppm
moly = 56 ppm

31. 10W30 Joe Gibbs HR4 Hotrod Oil = 86,270 psi
zinc = 1247 ppm
phos = 1137 ppm
moly = 24 ppm

32. 5W20 Pennzoil Ultra, API SM = 86,034 psi
I have not been able to find this oil with the latest API SN certification.
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD

33. 5W30 Royal Purple API SN = 84,009 psi
zinc = 942 ppm
phos = 817 ppm
moly = 0 ppm

34. 20W50 Royal Purple API SN = 83,487 psi
zinc = 588 ppm
phos = 697 ppm
moly = 0 ppm

35. 20W50 Kendall GT-1 High Performance with liquid titanium, (conventional) API SN = 83,365 psi
zinc = 991 ppm
phos = 1253 ppm
moly = 57 ppm
titanium = 84 ppm

36. 5W30 Mobil 1 Extended Performance 15,000 mile, API SN = 83,263 psi
zinc = 890 ppm
phos = 819 ppm
moly = 104 ppm

37. 0W20 Castrol Edge with Titanium, API SN = 82,867 psi
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD

******** 30% below number 1 = 80,928 psi ********

38. 5W30 GM's AC Delco dexos 1 (semi-synthetic) API SN = 76,501 psi
zinc = 878 ppm
phos = 758 ppm
moly = 72 ppm



**************** MODEST PROTECTION ************


39. 5W30 Royal Purple XPR (Extreme Performance Racing) = 74,860 psi
zinc = 1421 ppm
phos = 1338 ppm
moly = 204 ppm
NOTE: This particular bottle of oil was just opened, but was out of a 3 ½ year old case.

40. 15W40 Farm Rated Heavy Duty Performance Diesel, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF/SL, SJ (conventional) = 73,176 psi
zinc = 1325ppm
phos = 1234 ppm
moly = 2 ppm

41. Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1 Nitro 70 Racing Oil (semi-synthetic) = 72,003 psi
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD

42. 0W30 Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1 (semi-synthetic) = 71,377 psi
zinc = 1621 ppm
phos = 1437 ppm
moly = 0 ppm

43. 10W30 Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1 (semi-synthetic) = 71,206 psi
zinc = 1557 ppm
phos = 1651 ppm
moly = 3 ppm

44. 15W50 Mobil 1, API SN = 70,235 psi
zinc = 1,133 ppm
phos = 1,168 ppm
moly = 83 ppm

******** 40% below number 1 = 69,367 psi ********

45. 5W30 Motorcraft, API SN = 68,782 psi
zinc = 796 ppm
phos = 830 ppm
moly = 75 ppm

46. 10W30 Royal Purple HPS (High Performance Street) = 66,211 psi
zinc = 1774 ppm
phos = 1347 ppm
moly = 189 ppm

47. 10W40 Valvoline 4 Stroke Motorcycle Oil conventional, API SJ = 65,553 psi
zinc = 1154 ppm
phos = 1075 ppm
moly = 0 ppm

48. Royal Purple 10W30 Break-In Oil conventional = 62,931 psi
zinc = 1170 ppm
phos = 1039 ppm
moly = 0 ppm

******** 50% below number 1 = 57,806 psi ********

NOTE: There are no BAD oils here, it’s simply that some oils provide a higher level of reserve protection than others. Even the lowest ranking oil will generally work fine in most applications. But, higher ranked oils do provide a higher “margin of safety” regarding wear prevention.

SUMMARY ON THE DEFY MOTOR OIL:

So, the new Defy motor oil “wear test” ranking was 5th out of 14 high zinc oils with 1100 to 1800 ppm zinc. And it ranked 28th out of “ALL” the 48 oils I’ve “wear tested” so far. That makes it a mid-pack performer overall, meaning that there are many better oils available, as well as many oils available that are not as good. But, Defy did perform well enough to just make it into the OUTSTAND PROTECTION category, which would make it a perfectly good oil for anyone interested in running an oil with “seal swell” chemicals in it.

However, keep in mind that it’s TBN (Total Base Number, an acid neutralizer to prevent corrosion) value of 6.5 is somewhat low, so you would never want to think about running this oil for any extended drain intervals. But, if you change it at reasonable intervals, this TBN value won’t be an issue.

And the claim about preventing 98% of all future wear, is just smoke and mirrors advertising, nothing more. Its mid-pack ranking does not provide much confidence in supporting that claim, and no end user would ever be able to prove or disprove the claim anyway. So, all indications are that, that claim is about as worthless as that silly “300,000 mile Guarantee” by Valvoline.

Inflated hype is nothing new with motor oil, that’s for sure. And that reminds me of the claims on the bottle of the conventional Kendall 20W50 GT-1 High Performance with liquid Titanium, API SN. It says “Racing formula with extra Zinc”, yet Lab Testing showed that it only had 991 ppm zinc. It also said, “Exceptional wear protection”, yet in wear testing, it only ranked 35th out of the 48 oils tested, with only 83,365 psi “load carrying capacity/film strength”. So, you’d be much better served by choosing your motor oil based on something real and measureable, and not by believing advertising/marketing hype, which is seldom ever actually true.

As for the $5.29 per quart price of Defy, it is a good value for the money. But, an even better value for the money, is the $4.29 per quart 5W30 Chevron Supreme conventional API SN oil, which ranked 9th out of 48 oils with 100,011 psi “load carrying capacity/film strength”, which is 10.8% higher than the Defy. And the Chevron has an even higher TBN value of 7.5 as well.

OVERALL SUMMARY:

Just so everyone is clear, I do not sell oil, and I do not get paid by any oil company. So, I have no stake in what oil anyone buys and runs. Everyone can buy whatever they want, for whatever reason they want. It makes no difference to me.

But, I’ve always had a keen interest in all aspects of our hobby, just like most everyone else. And I got tired of not really knowing “what is what” regarding motor oil. So, I decided to perform a bunch of independent “Wear Testing” and have a bunch of “Lab Testing” done. That way I could advance my own personal knowledge greatly. And I’ve learned a lot along the way. But, it did require that I keep an open mind, and not stay stuck with what I always “thought” was correct, based on everything I’d read in the past. Because it turns out that a lot of what I’d always thought was correct, was NOT correct at all.

What I’ve posted here is not intended to convince anyone of anything. I’m only sharing what I’ve learned from real world testing. That’s it. Folks can embrace the data, or ignore it. That’s up to them. So, there is no reason at all for some folks to get upset. I’m simply providing more data than you’ve had before, which you can take into consideration, if
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Very interesting read. Do you have the name of the original poster? It would be very nice to know his credentials.

It would seem that a lot of the info people are spouting on the net is incorrect at best.

Thanks

Jack
 
Makes since to me. The are other ways to get good EP (extreme pressure) resistance to wear.

The oil wear test is also what you might call a blind test, in that the test equipment does not know what oil it is testing, it just tests them all head to head. It doesn&#8217;t care what brand the oil is. It doesn&#8217;t care if it is a modern API certified low zinc oil or an older type traditional high zinc oil. It doesn&#8217;t care about how much detergent is in the oil. It doesn&#8217;t care what the Lab Test print out shows. All it cares about is the size of the wear scar generated. The smaller the scar, the better the oil protected against wear, and the higher the psi value.
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I scar test oils, additives, and lubricants all the time. If you dump in a bunch of straight zinc additive it will perform well. But that much zinc will cause pitting. Notice the Lucas with a ton of zinc says "short term use only..." There's a reason for that.
 
The scar testing was done and posted by 'rat540' on speedtalk's engine forum. He does not give his real name.

It is interesting and useful, but at the same time represents only one of several considerations in choosing a motor oil. His test (which he reposts at every opportunity) unfortunately too often takes people off track from other performance characteristics of the oil that they should be looking at. In fact possibly more important ones (depending on the situation.)

One of the best papers to start with is Richard Widman's "Selecting the right oil for your Corvair". He covers base stocks, SAE weights vs viscosity, pour points, shear and much more.
Download pdf in English from
http://www.widman.biz/Corvair/English/Links/Links.html
or his business pages http://www.widman.biz/English/Selection/oil.html
 
Note: I used QS Defy in my Cherokee (the 4.0 is a flat-tappet engine)...Blackstone Labs analysed a sample, and with 180,000+ miles, it was the best UOA they had EVER gotten from a Jeep 4.0! Yes, I'm sold on Defy!

In summer, I run 15W-40 diesel oil (currently Rotella), which also has extra ZDDP.
 
autoxcuda said:
Makes since to me. The are other ways to get good EP (extreme pressure) resistance to wear.



I scar test oils, additives, and lubricants all the time. If you dump in a bunch of straight zinc additive it will perform well. But that much zinc will cause pitting. Notice the Lucas with a ton of zinc says "short term use only..." There's a reason for that.
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Excellent point about the short term use
 
I switched my Duster over to QS Defy a little while back based on the information I got from my Penz representative. He showed me pretty much the same result tests as indicated in the original posters information. The info I was also told is NOT to run it in any vehicle with Cat convertors. It will destroy the cat convertor. (Just FYI)
So far I have no complaints of using the Defy. Seems like a good oil to me and based on this info and the other info I recieved direct from the manufacturer which seems to match up together... I will continue to use it.

-RPM
 
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35731

Another thread with what appears to be diligent testing of oil. And then a number of people pointing out issues with the results.

This is pretty great info thread you have going here. I have lately seen a bunch of info about "poisoning" oil by adding zddp additive to it. Ahhh, what to do?! I have dosed all my flat tappet engines with a quarter bottle of lucas zddp and can't friggin decide if I should omit on the next oil change.

edit, after more reading, I think I am going to just have the oil analyzed on all my machines that I care about after 3K or so of running.
 
Ricenuker. I know it looks like great info, and in a very limited way it is. It's the same person, reposting the same results with a few new oils he's tested.

Allow me to repost my comments from another speedtalk thread and then add a few comments.
"Scar tests are one of a many considerations but especially useful when looking at extreme pressure (EP) situations. For this reason scar test results are often provided on spec sheets for grease. It is fine to look at scar results for motor oil, but you are correct to start your selection process by understanding 'weights' and the other performance characteristics, some of which relate to base stock and some of which relate to additive package."

The person doing the tests has become what could be described as overly invested. This does not change the validity of the tests, but it does effect both the presentation of his results and the conclusions. The presentations become long and convoluted explanations attempting to justify conclusions such "ZDDP is a Myth." It is true that there are now other compounds being used for similar function, but at the same time it does not mean the ZDDP's utility is a myth. Nor does this one test mean that the oils with those alternate compounds on the whole make a good package for your engine. They might, or might not. There's good stuff in those threads but its a bunch of work to sort the chaff from the wheat.

For your specific situation where you want to decide how much additive, if any should be used, I think you are on the right track. Look on the 'net or contact the companies for the spec sheets; Have the virgin oil analyzed and/or look on Bob is the Oil Guy forums. The last is where you will find the 'mixologists' both avocational and a few professional (maybe still there).

I personally think [ame="http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Corvair_oil.pdf"]Widman's paper [/ame]is good because he covers many of the considerations in choosing an oil. It is straightforward, has illustrations, and even makes a list (based on published specs) And while oriented toward aircooled corvairs, really is no different than what would be good for any stock six or 8 that called for those same oil weights. For racing or other situations where the oil temperatures fall out of that range, or the engine is built loose, or the spring pressures are super high, it's still a ood stepping off point. In those cases, the Joe Gibb's website, and Haas "Oil 101' at Ferrari chat are good further reading without getting too deep.
 
Coyote Jack said:
Very interesting read. Do you have the name of the original poster? It would be very nice to know his credentials.

It would seem that a lot of the info people are spouting on the net is incorrect at best.

Thanks

Jack
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He goes by 540Rat on speedtalk. I'm a member there and checked his profile - no link to a website or further information. I've read the original thread, he bought a tester and says he follows the scar test procedure. I think it is an SAE test but could be ASTM, its been a while since I've looked. I have no reason to doubt that to the best of his ability, he has followed the procedures.

He has invested a lot of time and energy as well as some money and that tends lead people to want their results to be valued. He claimed in recent thread to be a "professional degreed engineer." Well let me tell you, that statement comes across as an obfusication (sp?) by someone trying to make themselves appear they have credentials they don't have.

A professional engineer would say so without any references to a degree. On a subject in his or her field, putting his or her stamp on a report or drawing indicates they approve it and are legally liable for any problems with it.

That said. I still believe the testing and results were done and recorded consistantly and accurately to a known standard as the author claims.
 
I just talked to Redline on the phone. Quite friendly fellow.

0w30, 5w30, 10w30, 5w40 (I was told) all have 1373 PPM Phosphorous and 1225 PPM Zinc. In my opinion, selecting the the correct viscosity at 100C of one of those options will cover any bearing clearances of most any motor. Edit: this content number is regarding their pure synthetic. Also, the general specs of their oil can be found on their website: http://www.redlineoil.com/techinfo.aspx

I am probably just switching to Redline for my flat tappet cars and leaving the zddp questions and experimentation behind.

Also, for late model vehicles their recommended drain interval is 10K - 18k for "vehicles out of warranty". I imagine this would mainly be dependent on the pollution of the oil from combustion and waste contaminants on the duration of OCI.
 
Mattax said:
He goes by 540Rat on speedtalk. I'm a member there and checked his profile - no link to a website or further information. I've read the original thread, he bought a tester and says he follows the scar test procedure. I think it is an SAE test but could be ASTM, its been a while since I've looked. I have no reason to doubt that to the best of his ability, he has followed the procedures.

He has invested a lot of time and energy as well as some money and that tends lead people to want their results to be valued. He claimed in recent thread to be a "professional degreed engineer." Well let me tell you, that statement comes across as an obfusication (sp?) by someone trying to make themselves appear they have credentials they don't have.

A professional engineer would say so without any references to a degree. On a subject in his or her field, putting his or her stamp on a report or drawing indicates they approve it and are legally liable for any problems with it.

That said. I still believe the testing and results were done and recorded consistantly and accurately to a known standard as the author claims.
Click to expand...

You know there was so much info there I sort of glanced through it and didn't read carefully.

So that big ranking lists of scar tests where done by the poster on his own personal scar testing machine?

I mistakenly thought those scar tests were done by that independent lab in Sparks NV. So, he only sent the Quaker State Defy and Quaker Ultimate Durability oil out to a lab to get an oil makeup analysis done. Basically that told him what is in it.

I have a Falex bearing scar testing machine for work. And FWIW, I do have an engineering degree from Iowa State University.

I have tested many of those oils. And I have scar tested additives with oil that tested higher than most of those oils in the excellent range.
 
Autoxcuda "And I have scar tested additives with oil that tested higher than most of those oils in the excellent range. "

Autox, so you have tested specific oils and subsequently added specific additives which show better scar results than his upper scale?
If so, would you say the additives are very likely to result in more protection?
I am interested in dosing w a particular additive (such as lucas zddp or similar), a more economical oil (such as Napa brand 5w30 or 10w40 - pure synthetic) but as of late am concerned that it is pointless and potentially counterproductive.

Care to share some specifics of your results on oil and additves?
 
That is a great set of info there. Looks like the 10W30 Brad Penn I was using isn't such good oil for wear but still my flat tappet cam and lifters looked pretty good when I removed them for a roller.
 
Rice Nuker said:
Autoxcuda "And I have scar tested additives with oil that tested higher than most of those oils in the excellent range. "

Autox, so you have tested specific oils and subsequently added specific additives which show better scar results than his upper scale?
If so, would you say the additives are very likely to result in more protection?
I am interested in dosing w a particular additive (such as lucas zddp or similar), a more economical oil (such as Napa brand 5w30 or 10w40 - pure synthetic) but as of late am concerned that it is pointless and potentially counterproductive.

Care to share some specifics of your results on oil and additves?
Click to expand...

I've tested Justice Brothers Engine Treatment with Wallmart 10-30 and get 3 times the load rating and about 1/3 the scar mark than Mobil 1.

I sell that product to repair and restoration shops and speciality parts stores that use it for flat tappet camshaft customers' older cars.

Now there are other properties than scar wear and flat tappet wear protection that make up a good oil. But a decent Castrol or Mobil 1 dino oil is good quality. And if you choose a synthetic you can get longer interval, less tendency to sludge, and use thinner weight oil for more HP and better cold startup flow.
 
Rice Nuker said:
...

Is it a proprietary blend of ingredients that you would approximate that when mixed with a good quality dino oil would lead to a considerable enhancement in protecting flat tappet camshafts?
Click to expand...

Yes. Proprietary. And for that matter so are Anti-Freeze and Oil companies products too.

Been in business for 75 years. Family owned, 3 generation company, everthing manufactred on site.
 
"Been in business for 75 years. Family owned, 3 generation company, everthing manufactred on site."

Good to know. Sounds like a solid organization to say the least. Thank you.
 
airwoofer said:
That is a great set of info there. Looks like the 10W30 Brad Penn I was using isn't such good oil for wear but still my flat tappet cam and lifters looked pretty good when I removed them for a roller.
Click to expand...

Two possibilities. One, is that the testing wasn't as uniform and controlled as it should have been. Second, even if it was, this scar test is not the only indicator of wear protection in an engine. Lets say for example you switched to a 15w-50 that scored well. But that puts the viscosity too high to flow well for your particular engine and use. This would result in more wear and maybe even damage or a failure in an extreme case.

This is why I have been recommending people look at viscosity, pour point, base stock, and so forth first. (Widman, Haas can help with that and they have nothing to sell you) Save Rat's scar test results for after you've narrowed the selection and maybe have some questions.

I personly was hunting around and around for oils for both my Wagoneer (stock AMC 360 2v) and my Barracuda (modified 340). I ended up settling on the Brad Penn 0W-30 for the Barracuda because of how cold it runs and the type of use it sees. I had tried the latest Penzoil and was never sure I was getting the same thing as they kept renaming the product.
 
Matt, you ever try having your oil tested to establish some baselines? I have not (not sure how friggin expensive it is).

Mattax said:
I personly was hunting around and around for oils for both my Wagoneer (stock AMC 360 2v) and my Barracuda (modified 340). I ended up settling on the Brad Penn 0W-30 for the Barracuda because of how cold it runs and the type of use it sees. I had tried the latest Penzoil and was never sure I was getting the same thing as they kept renaming the product.
Click to expand...
 
Yes. About $20-30 last time I did it.

The longer version is that I was sending the used oil samples to Blackstone for a number of years. At first I was doing it mostly to look for clues about engine internal condition. As I learned more I started using it to help evaluate whether I made good choices in selecting the oil. However every time I found something I liked, the next year it was no longer available in the same formulation!

Yes. It did help me spot a problem, but it wasn't because the lab spotted it. The iron was slowly increasing when it should have been decreasing. I already had known oiling issues on the new 340 which I had spotted by paying attention to the oil pressure and temperature. First was the pickup positioned a little high. But after that was fixed, I must have still had concerns. I'd have to look back and reconstruct the events, but the iron was one of the clues. So I pulled the rockers and found the wrong shaft had been installed resulting in light damage to bearing surfaces. I bought new shafts and had the cast iron rockers bushed.

Since then, I haven't have an oil analysis done. I might again, but don't consider it that great of a tool by itself. It's good when looking for trends and in combination with other information.

One thing I did notice is that for oil change intervals of 2,000 to 2,500 miles, the TBN was rarely used up. One time the TBN pretty much got used up was when I ran the Jeep well past its usual oil change interval AND had not topped it off regularly. Also, it can be useful in seeing what the actual viscosity is after use or abuse. (Remember the SAE wts are just a starting range, after shearing and heat cycles it can fall out of that range)

Let me know if this is what you were curious about, or some other aspect.
 
Mattax, yes that is what I was wondering - about the advantages and uses of oil testing. Trending and also evaluation of a selected oil/ additive. Very nice thx.
 
sorry I posted and didn't check back. I don't have info on the original poster I think I found it on a corvette forum. But I found it when researching the defy oil because i saw it at walmarl for 15 dollars for 5qts. But i did look up ther company that executed the testing and they seem to be a huge well accredited business. I also posted it to my native forum to see the feedback there, and they too came up with some interesting points. here is a link to that.

http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/showthread.php?t=729484
And more oil reading
http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/showthread.php?t=729620
 
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