Oil Pump

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Bakerlite said:
As far as a HV pump sucking the pan dry, well that is a possibility in some situations. How is it possible you ask? Well have a look at the GPM .
Stock 4.9
HV or HP 6.2
That's a 26.5 percent increase
As you increase the pressure, which HV pumps do, you also increase the GPM. More pressure squeezes more oil past all the little restrictions in the engine.
That extra oil has to make it's way back to the pickup.
So if your running close to oil starvation, with a stock pump, then going to a HV may just create an issue.
That's something to think about.
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It’s not possible. So let’s break it down.

1. Fluids are incompressible. So the oil will not compress. Of course, there is (and shouldn’t be) entrained air in the oil and that will make it somewhat compressible.

2. Pressure is resistance to flow. Nothing more.

3. Any hydraulic systems total flow is controlled by the number of leaks, and the amount of each leak combined. You can’t force more oil past a leak because...see #1.

4. Once you have pressure, the total flow through the system remains very close to the same. That’s accounting for the entrained air.

So it’s IMPOSSIBLE to “suck” a pan dry just by the installation of a high volume pump. If the stock pump is 4.9 GPM (taking your word for it since you posted it) we know that the OE system, with all its leaks and clearances flows less than 4.9 GPM. The only way to make it flow more GPM is to add leaks, increase the volume of the leaks or both. And we know the OE system flows less than 4.9 GPM because the bypass opens. You can see it on the gauge. If the bypass didn’t open, the pressure would continue to increase with RPM. And it doesn’t. Pressure is resistance to flow.

Now, you can bolt a 165 GPM pump on there and the total system flow will be...that’s right, less than 4.9 GPM unless you add more leaks, increase the volume of the leaks or both. What will happen is the bigger pump will have a higher pressure sooner because the full volume of oil of the system uses will be reached at a lower RPM.

But the volume of oil moving through the system stays the same. Of course, system pressure will increase with RPM until the bypass opens. If the bypass is set to open at the same pressure then that’s all the pressure you will get. It will just open the bypass sooner.

You can dead head the bypass if the volume of the pump exceeds the volume potential of the bypass. Then the pressure will increase with RPM until the filter blows off. There is an added leak.

Unless there is a mechanical issue like the pickup isn’t the correct distance from the floor of the pan it isn’t possible for any pump to suck any pan dry.

Of course, on here you need to account for any possibility so I have to point out that an engine can retain oil. It is more a function of RPM that oil pump volume. If the oil is retained in the engine somewhere and not getting to the pan, you can have the pan go dry.

That’s not a pump issue. That is a mechanical issue.

So for all the misinformation and fear mongering a high volume pump can’t suck a pan dry unless you have some mechanical issue.
 
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Take a hose , put a .040 restriction in it and apply 25 PSI. Time it for 30 sec into a container. Then apply 70 PSI for 30 sec and see how much is in the container. There will obviously be more.
Now think of that .040 restriction as a clearance in the engine.
If you have a standard pump making 25 PSI at idle and then you put on a HV high pressure pump and it's making 50 PSI at idle, then obviously that's going to push more oil past those clearances at idle.
As I said, in some situations (and as we know, all engines are not the same) HV High pressure pump can cause an issue.
In the Engine Masters test shown earlier in the thread the GPM (Gallons Per Minute) tells the story. If nothing changed by going to the HV high pressure pump, then the GMP would not have changed.
If its passing more GPM, it's got to be going somewhere.
Just sayin..
 
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Rat Bastid said:
It’s not possible.
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Rat Bastid said:
a high volume pump can’t suck a pan dry unless you have some mechanical issue.
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So it's not possible, then it's possible..
And who's to guess that an engine doesn't have that mechanical issue. How many times have we heard of people putting on HV pumps and pressure springs to try and bandaid a worn engine with poor oil pressure.

Rat Bastid said:
Fluids are incompressible.
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Toss that fluid into a Black Hole, and see if it won't compress...LOL..
 
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So I used a direct connection small block race pump when I assembled my 340 in 1998 it has over 50,000 miles on it it's seen over 7000 RPMs more time than I can remember, add a few Mised shifts it's still idols at 40PSI and cruises at 67ish . When the motor was new it would peg the 80 lb gauge when it was cold and hover it about 75 when I cruise. I also run a 7 qt pan and will continue to use a Hv pump and larger pan . My success
 
S'cuder said:
Seinfeld reference. Big surprise.
:lol:
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Having never seen one episode, I've never known where that came from. The commercial parts guy and I used to use it joking around all the time. Seinfeld's brand of humor just always rubbed me the wrong way. Never got into it.
 
How is all the dick measuring helping the OP? Can we create a fluid dynamics thread so you two can show off your intelligence? I actually have something significant to add to this subject, but I won't do it here.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Having never seen one episode, I've never known where that came from. The commercial parts guy and I used to use it joking around all the time. Seinfeld's brand of humor just always rubbed me the wrong way. Never got into it.
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I like it. It's an acquired taste, though. It couldn't be made today. It's way too offensive for all the thin skinned snowflakes out there now.
There's backstory, but not much plot. Four very flawed, dysfunctional friends and the ridiculous situations in which they behave badly.
I know you like baseball and movies. I don't know if you've seen JFK, but here's a parody. It's still funny.
 
RustyRatRod said:
How is all the dick measuring helping the OP? Can we create a fluid dynamics thread so you two can show off your intelligence? I actually have something significant to add to this subject, but I won't do it here.
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Sure, lets not expand our thinking on anything.
He should just put a HV pump on it, plenty do without issue..
 
RustyRatRod said:
Having never seen one episode, I've never known where that came from. The commercial parts guy and I used to use it joking around all the time. Seinfeld's brand of humor just always rubbed me the wrong way. Never got into it.
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How's these Seinfeld references helping the OP?
:lol:
 
Bakerlite said:
How's these Seinfeld references helping the OP?
:lol:
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RustyRatRod said:
How is all the dick measuring helping the OP? Can we create a fluid dynamics thread so you two can show off your intelligence? I actually have something significant to add to this subject, but I won't do it here.
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It’s not showing off. It’s exposing a fool. It’s sickening to watch over and over the same **** repeated.
 
Bakerlite said:
Sure, lets not expand our thinking on anything.
He should just put a HV pump on it, plenty do without issue..
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Did I say that? No. I said lets do it on another thread.
 
Locomotion said:
I've used the standard pump on my race 360's up to 7,000 rpm and an 8 qt Milodon pan running 5-6 qts of oil. (Oil pressure did fluctuate a bit with 5 quarts.) But bearing clearances and other "leaking" part clearances were kept to a minimum.
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:thumbsup:
 
Bewy said:
The standard factory pumps have excess capacity built into them. Rarely would it be necessary to use a HV pump. I am not against them for the poofteenth extra hp they consume, but the fact that they are needlessly bypassing oil back to the pan & making the pump work harder than it needs to.
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:thumbsup:
 
Bakerlite said:
Not Again!!!!!! I ain't never gettin no soup
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Looks like someone's had a little "disagree" tizzy LOL
Even with this post...what a crybaby..
What's the point of having these post ratings if jilted lovers are just going to abuse them?
Oh well..
 
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I use a melling high volume pump on my 426 stroker, no mods to the oil passages. 3 years using it and no issues so far, plenty of oil flow.
 
If rod and main bearing clearances meet or exceed .002", rocker arms have been converted to full time oiling, lifter bores are worn or have been honed, a HV pump is a good idea. If max RPM is in excess of 6000 RPM a high pressure spring should be installed in the HV pump.
Who is this Seinfeld? Does he race a Dodge? Whoever he is what the heck does he have to do with high performance mopar engines? Yes I live in a cave, a mopar cave.
As to how many HP it takes to turn a HV pump with a HP spring in it bear in mind you can spin the intermediate shaft during priming with cold oil using a Dewalt hand drill. If it took any appreciable power to do so you would break your wrist which obviously doesn't happen. How many horsepower can you hang onto with your hand? Perhaps 1/50th The actual power used is measured in the very low fractional horsepower range.
If there is any concern over "sucking a pan dry" it is time to use a windage tray/scraper and/or a six or eight quart baffled pan to accommodate the increased flow. Simple common sense hydraulic stuff.
 
Col_Steve said:
As to how many HP it takes to turn a HV pump with a HP spring in it bear in mind you can spin the intermediate shaft during priming with cold oil using a Dewalt hand drill. If it took any appreciable power to do so you would break your wrist which obviously doesn't happen. How many horsepower can you hang onto with your hand? Perhaps 1/50th The actual power used is measured in the very low fractional horsepower range.
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How many PSI are you making turning the pump by hand?
6.1 GPM @75 Psi = about 0.32 HP to run.. I think!
 
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Mopar Performance recommends using the chrome-moly intermediary shaft with the HV oil pump.
High volume pump = 25% more torque
High pressure spring = another 25% more torque

A HV oil pump pulls a quart of oil thru the pickup tube in one second at 7000 rpm. Combine that with oil sloshing backwards when leaving the line or sloshing forwards with hard braking. And add in the oil winding around the crank. Now you can imagine why in a borderline situation the use of a HV oil pump could cause issues. Baffles and larger oil pans are important.
 
pt70 said:
Mopar Performance recommends using the chrome-moly intermediary shaft with the HV oil pump.
High volume pump = 25% more torque
High pressure spring = another 25% more torque

A HV oil pump pulls a quart of oil thru the pickup tube in one second at 7000 rpm. Combine that with oil sloshing backwards when leaving the line or sloshing forwards with hard braking. And add in the oil winding around the crank. Now you can imagine why in a borderline situation the use of a HV oil pump could cause issues. Baffles and larger oil pans are important.
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That’s what it CAN pull IF the system volume requires it. It can only move as much oil as the system leaks.

The other issues you mention have nothing to do with the pump sucking the pan dry.

Windage is what it is by rpm, the volume of oil leaked at the bearings do oil flowing back down to the pan.

A poorly designed and baffled pan has issues regardless of what pump is used.

I’ve never primed an engine that required more than a half inch drill motor. That’s not even 1 hp.
 
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