oiling timing chain
- Thread starter jack colv
- Start date
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Thanks for all the info; I do Have a double roller chain from mancini racing but I have not been able to find a stock thrust plate and bolts only the one with slides which I do not like. My other concern how will the chain get oil without having bolt with hole drilled into it was thinking about leaving bolt out or drill hole in thrust plate at the oil gally Thanks again for getting back to me
I am a big fan of the pressurized oil trick through the thrust plate. IMO, it would have been good for Chrysler to have done even on a stock build. What could possibly be the down side? Of course, you don't want much of a hole. I drilled the galley plug in my slant 6 build with a 1/16" hole and that will soak the timing set, rest arrured and not cause a big pressure drop. That's simply no down side. More lubrication and more cooling. What's not to like?
Thanks for your input i think that is what I am going to do
With the Hydraulic lifters today always being a problem pumping up when cold. I would leave the oil galley closed. If you want more oil just leave the top left bolt out instead of using the drilled bolt. I have cam bolts and plates if you need them.
A solid flat tappet cam or solid roller cam you can get away with drilling the thrust plate. Our Shop builds a lot of SBM. If you have that much slack in a chain the chain is junk. The pull side of the chain always stays tight as the crank turns the cam. The slack side gets tight when the crank stops pulling. That tensioner does nothing to prevent the pull side from getting loose when the crank stops pulling. It over comes the spring.
Did any of you ever hear the chain slap on a 6 cylinder with the junk chain. That is why they came up with the tensioner. They are a bandaid for a junk chains and cam tunnel to close for the cheap chains they bought millions of.
Think how the cam timing moves back and forth when the chain is that loose tensioner or not.
I ran my solid roller motor 8 years no tensioner and with no upper bolt. 8000 rpm shifts and over rev'd up to 9300 rpms at times. I am using the chain over in my street 416. The chain is a billet cloyes true roller. Having heavy spring pressure and angled push rods I keep as much oil to the side of the lifters and rockers . So the galley stays as sealed as possible
I have been doing it this way for years. Two bolts and a dripper
Good chain
No tensioner
Gravity fed lubed from bolt or no bolt / pressurized oil is a choice with solid lifters
Dripper and oil slinger on the crank
I would never use a tensioner unless it was a 6 with the line bore to close to the cam tunnel with a junk chain as they were built .
If you need the plate and bolts I have them for $10 and shipping cost
A solid flat tappet cam or solid roller cam you can get away with drilling the thrust plate. Our Shop builds a lot of SBM. If you have that much slack in a chain the chain is junk. The pull side of the chain always stays tight as the crank turns the cam. The slack side gets tight when the crank stops pulling. That tensioner does nothing to prevent the pull side from getting loose when the crank stops pulling. It over comes the spring.
Did any of you ever hear the chain slap on a 6 cylinder with the junk chain. That is why they came up with the tensioner. They are a bandaid for a junk chains and cam tunnel to close for the cheap chains they bought millions of.
Think how the cam timing moves back and forth when the chain is that loose tensioner or not.
I ran my solid roller motor 8 years no tensioner and with no upper bolt. 8000 rpm shifts and over rev'd up to 9300 rpms at times. I am using the chain over in my street 416. The chain is a billet cloyes true roller. Having heavy spring pressure and angled push rods I keep as much oil to the side of the lifters and rockers . So the galley stays as sealed as possible
I have been doing it this way for years. Two bolts and a dripper
Good chain
No tensioner
Gravity fed lubed from bolt or no bolt / pressurized oil is a choice with solid lifters
Dripper and oil slinger on the crank
I would never use a tensioner unless it was a 6 with the line bore to close to the cam tunnel with a junk chain as they were built .
If you need the plate and bolts I have them for $10 and shipping cost
Thanks for the info I will take a thrust plate and bolts how do I pay you
I need your zip code for shipping. I take paypal "friends and family" or "money transfer" only then include your address with payment. Steve
MOPAROFFICIAL
Oogliboogli
No.
Don't drill a hole either. You dont need pressurized oil to the chain and imo you certainly don't wanna take any away from the main bearings.
Buy a roller chain and itll have plenty of oilling from leakage around front cam bearing and stop in go from crank oil slinger. Run the bolt & plate with the hole or drill a hole in the bolt for valley drip as well.
Tensioner can do well. I've run one for years. Not a have to, but not a shouldn't do either.
Never in a million years would have thought I'd be reading people saying to pull oil from the main galley.
There is no need for all this over thinking bs for the timing chain. Ridiculous. Never heard this crap before till this site. Jmo
MOPAROFFICIAL
Oogliboogli
How many miles on it?
I'm sure the chain was shot, over 75-150k miles I assume. Its a testament to how much oil already get to the chain imo.
It leaks from the no.1 cam bearing and is carried by the chain @ stop n go as well as the slinger.
MOPAROFFICIAL
Oogliboogli
How many 1960's stock iron gear timing chains you see tight after 70,000 miles?right? Did its job. Someone should put a camera inside the cover to show all the splash/spray etc... and to think a motorcycle can run its chain without an oil bath or spray hole.
Lol some of you need to snap out of it.
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
You compare a motorcycle drive chain to a timing chain? That’s a bad comparison. The MC chain doesn’t need to be accurate, can be maladjusted and still function and is much bigger. There is no reason not to oil a timing chain. Splash lubrication is a poor way to lube anything.
lead69
hopeless car junkie
I will just say I have had my hand in a ton of small block mopars (and other makes/engines) in the last few years and have run the best billet chains (only a couple manufacturers left that even make them) and can say for a fact that chain stretch is a problem even with very few miles. These were not cheap chains and/or installed correctly (loose etc.), these were all billet name brand chains, also four speed cars (which most were) are especially hard on chains. To say "I've done this for ten years" holds no merit to me as the same lifters that were good ten years ago are now a crap shoot at best.
Things change, manufacturing/quality of materials, quality control changes and that's just the facts. When it comes to chains we always use a tensioner now and have had zero problems to date with them. The chain will still stretch but it will be better controlled by the tensioner so it doesn't slop around on decel/shifting. I have degreed a few of the chains that were loose and to my surprise it takes a fair amount of play for a chain to move the cam timing even 2 degrees, the most I saw was 1.5. We are building dinosaurs and few companies are putting any effort into the basic replacement parts for them anymore, It's not getting any better.
Things change, manufacturing/quality of materials, quality control changes and that's just the facts. When it comes to chains we always use a tensioner now and have had zero problems to date with them. The chain will still stretch but it will be better controlled by the tensioner so it doesn't slop around on decel/shifting. I have degreed a few of the chains that were loose and to my surprise it takes a fair amount of play for a chain to move the cam timing even 2 degrees, the most I saw was 1.5. We are building dinosaurs and few companies are putting any effort into the basic replacement parts for them anymore, It's not getting any better.
lead69
hopeless car junkie
I also agree with oldmanmopar, the tensioner is a band aid for crappy chains but chain lengnth is a huge factor as well and until they make one that does not stretch I will use the band aid. As far as oiling I agree with the dripper and drilling a small oil hole, haven't seen any drawbacks to it.
There is a fog of oil saturating the chain while running . I dont see a big need for direct oiling. A 2stroke engine in a dirtbike oils the bottom end in this manor and thats running a 50:1 ratio of fuel to oil.
Modern cars use tensioners and run well in excess of 100k with few issues.
Modern cars use tensioners and run well in excess of 100k with few issues.
pishta
I know I'm right....
Ill vote for a tensioner on any build, and pressurized oil jet, very small at that. Yes, the taught side (driver) does the pulling but look at almost any chain after 2000 miles and you'll see new slack. Its just the nature of the beast unless your running a very good chain, and I've even heard Cloyes double rollers looking like noodles after 3 months. If your anal about the double rollers 3 pronounced ridges at the slipper contact, take a file/dremmel/mill and dig your ditches so the slipper is contacting the rounded portion of the links, but its completely not needed as whatever comes off the slipper (wear marks) is not going to make it past the filter, and the stuff is not carbide so its not going to damage anything anyway. I have the original 10" mile full length slipper out of a 247k Mazda OHC MA motor and there is barely a groove in it and that is a factory roller chain. Anyone ever see a high speed shot of a drive chain or belt, it looks like 2 bent belts between the 2 pulleys and this introduces subtle timing variations to the cam and ignition. By keeping the 'slack' side under some controlled tension, this is reduced. It wont fix a worn chain, but it will control the increased timing variations a worn or sloppy chain introduces on and off throttle. If you could watch it under load and go on and off the throttle, you would see the chain slop move from side to side, drive and coast. Control that and your timing will be more stable. "...Another issue with a roller chain setup is the “chordal action,” a whipping motion that happens when the chain turns on the gear teeth. That whipping motion can literally turn the chain into an “S” shape. Chordal action can weaken the chain and also negatively affect valve timing, ignition timing, and mechanical oil and fuel pumps. That’s why it’s important to check the timing chain on regularly. If it’s tired, replace it...."Its an argument that wont convince some but its not hard to see the difference in a tensioned setup compared to a non tensioned setup. And no, your timing chain will not always be as tight as new as even the cogs wear.
Here is the bulletin Chrysler used when the chains were rattling on the early Dakotas. There was a recall due to the chains being loose from the cam to crank bore being to close. It was after this that everyone started using the bandaid tensioner. Do not use this on a roller chain. Also it is just more parts to worry about failing.
They make different length chain sets to correct chain slack. That is the proper way. If you are just doing a low budget street engine use what ever your heart desires.
https://es-mx.drivcat.com/livedocs/1014.pdf
They make different length chain sets to correct chain slack. That is the proper way. If you are just doing a low budget street engine use what ever your heart desires.
https://es-mx.drivcat.com/livedocs/1014.pdf
Agree that the drive chain is a bad comparison, but a motorcycle that has a sealed primary case with chain which connects the engine sprocket to the clutch shell sprocket assembly such as on an old Iron head Harley, Triumph, BSA etc, might be a good comparison for running a tensioner etc, it has its own lubricant and all the primaries I’ve seen run an oem tensioner. The oil levels are usually at a level where the lower chain run is submerged in the oil, Long life setup for sure.
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This chain had around 8 years of hard abuse. Over 800 HP at the crank. As tight as the day it was installed. Reusing it as stated above on a 416 street motor because it is still like new. Oiled through the drip hole front cam bearing and a slinger. Look close you can see the bolt with no hole. We are going to stop the oil drip on the new engine. We don't want anything that is spinning to grab oil. ?????
New Knife edged crank and Kevko Pan. The less oil your spinning the better off you are. we also run a narrow timing cover and no mechanical fuel pump eccentric
New Knife edged crank and Kevko Pan. The less oil your spinning the better off you are. we also run a narrow timing cover and no mechanical fuel pump eccentric
mopowers
Well-Known Member
What timing set is that?
Like my Maico 490. It uses 2 primary chains to transmit power from the crankshaft to the transission . They are submerged in oil but still stretch quite a bit in short order.
17728
Explosive beast for sure!
MOPAROFFICIAL
Oogliboogli
Why do people boast when the chain is made by a high end motorcycle chain manufacturer. Lol
The timing chain is fighting maybe 275lbs to 600lbs spring pressure..as the bike is shock loaded with a ? and riders weight. Sure its larger, still not oiled. All I'm saying is the stretch is more or less the chains fault and not lack of oiling.
A lot of cheap crap chains.
The timing chain is fighting maybe 275lbs to 600lbs spring pressure..as the bike is shock loaded with a ? and riders weight. Sure its larger, still not oiled. All I'm saying is the stretch is more or less the chains fault and not lack of oiling.
A lot of cheap crap chains.
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