Old horse new beating cam question

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Penstarpurist

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I know this question gets asked more than probably any other. And I know there's a hundred or more opinions, but here goes. My son after constantly saying he would never deviate from bone stock numbers matching car has realized it's just a car, enjoy it and make it fun. Besides we have industrial shelving to store the stock parts on, and can always be put back on. So we swapped out the 7.25/2.76 rearend to a 8.75/3.55, he wants to use an edelbrock 650 cfm electric choke carb, edelbrock performer 318/360 intake. As that's already on the shelf. The next question is of course cam selection. He really doesn't want to have to change the valve springs, and isn't looking for drag strip performance, but a mild street daily driver car. And he does drive this car 365 days a year. Is there a cam out there above a stock OEM grind that doesn't require bigger lift springs? Its not the end of the world if we gotta change them, but he really doesn't want to. I think his stock springs are at 380 lift. With most cams I've seen needing spring rates in around 500 lift. So any recommendations? 318/904, 8.75/3.55, 650cfm, performer intake, dual 2" exhaust with 40 series and x-pipe.
 
Just my opinion but to me a cam change means cam, lifters and springs at a minimum. That said, I'm sure you can call a cam grinder, tell him your setup and they will grind you a cam that will not require a spring change.
 
If he doesn't want to change the valve springs, leave the old cam in it. It's really that simple.
 
If he doesn't want to change the valve springs, leave the old cam in it. It's really that simple.
Lol, that would certainly solve the problem. I think honestly he would have no problem with that. If I'm being honest, I would have to say that my other son and I are really the ones trying to get him to do a cam swap with the intake and carb swap more than he wants to. His engine has front and rear main seal leaks, his freeze plugs are slow leaking, power steering leaking everywhere. What he really needs is to pull the whole engine out, do at least all new gaskets along with his carb and intake swap. To his brother and I, it's senseless not to go with a new cam, lifters, springs, timing chain set at least. Personally a 50 year old engine, I'd do rings, bearings, bead hone, etc. And then put a 727 transmission in place of the 904. Which we got ready to go on the shelf. Lol, but it's his car, so whatever he wants. His brother wants to buy him the cam, lifters, springs as an early Christmas gift. I'm willing to pay the shop to clean, surface, spring swap, etc.
 
To make more power, you have to spin it faster. The faster you spin it the harder valve control becomes.
The faster you spin it the longer the intake has to stay open to allow the time required to get the air in there. The longer the duration, the later the intake closes. The later the intake closes, the less pressure she traps. The lower the pressure, the softer the bottom end. The softer the bottom end, the bigger the TC needs to be, lest the dang thing can't get off the line, commensurate with the expected performance increase.
And that takes you back to post #2, from Toolman.
The 8/1Scr LA318 is walking a thin line with the factory cam specs. In your lightweight Duster you can get away with a bit softer bottom end, since you have upgraded the rear gear 28.6%. The dual 2" pipes will be a nice upgrade.
The factory cam is a tad bigger than it specs at. But the .050s tell the story. That usually means you can go at least one to one and a half cam sizes bigger at .050, on a 110LSA with just a little loss in low-rpm performance. That would get you about a 252/110 advertised; but the stock springs won't handle that. The stock cam peaks around 4200rpm and floats the valves shortly afterwards. The 252 will want to go 5200 or so.

But IMO it's kindof backwards for your application, because first gear won't make 60 mph, and second with 3.55s will only spin ~4100rpm@60mph. First gear, in a streeter, is kindof a throw away gear with 3.55s, cuz even a stock 4bbl teener will spin a long ways thru it. If you rev first out to say 4800 in the stocker (with upgraded springs), then the Rs will drop to 2850@41mph on the shift, right about at peak torque on the little stocker. Then the run to 60mph puts it at peak power.
If you do the same with a 252 cam, it ain't gonna be much quicker, cuz at 4100 she is a long way from peak power. And without a compression boost, the bottom end may in fact be a little softer, Sooooo the upshot is that both cams could produce the same average power from stall to 60mph. Could.

SO, IMO, if you want to have a lil more fun off the line, just get a lil bigger TC and call it done. I really like my 2800, but a 2500 should be enough. The factory teener stall spec is around 1750 to 1850 . With a 2500 you will need a SureGrip for sure. With the 2800 you'll be needing more rubber,lol, and or, SS springs..
My 2cents
 
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I was thinking about Oregon cam. They are in my neck of the woods.
Yes give Ken a call at Oregon cam grinding. The 904 is lighter and plenty strong. I think it's a waist of time and money to put springs in for a small performance cam. Most will disagree, but they're not spending my money.
 
Is the owing son's objection tho the spring change due to not wantting ti change much at all, or just the price tag? And, if owning son does not want to have a high maintenance car, that may say....don't mess with it!

If you keep the lift at or below the .450" lift range you can 'get by' with stock springs. Even with stock springs, they will operate up to the RPM where valve float starts, and that is around 4000-5000 RPM. (I see AJ has posted a similar number.) So some benefit will be realized with a cam change, since the intake and carb are being changed to allow the cam to actually increase breathing. If you don't want to soften up the low RPM operation, then you have to stick with a low duration cam, like a Lunati Voodoo 700201700. Those will help in the 2500-4000-ish RPM range. But you need to be careful with break-in procedures and maintaining adequate ZDDP levels in the oil for a fast rate cam like the VooDoo.

Note that the problem with the 'typical' cams is that once you increase the lift, then the duration gets long-ish and that hurts low RPM torque, which makes the engine 'doggy' at the low RPM's. That is the reason to go with a faster ramp cam, like the VooDoo types. BTW, if you do go with the VooDoo type cam, then I would not get their recommended springs. I'd use something less aggressive like stock 340 springs.
 
I'm sure you could get one with only .020 more lift and only 6 degrees more duration ...but why.... the stock springs are worn out anyways. Change them and the seals with compressed air. If you can change a cam... you can do that too.
 
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BTW, if you do go with the VooDoo type cam, then I would not get their recommended springs. I'd use something less aggressive like stock 340 springs.

Or Comp Cams 901's are another good choice.
 
I didn't see anywhere what the point of the new cam is.
Is it for added performance, or sound of the exhaust?

If for added performance then the cam is going to be different enough to need new springs and lifters, and then as a daily driver you will have to be careful about destroying the fuel economy. (and low end torque is critical for a daily)

If the point is just to make it sound a little meaner, get a cam made just for that.
Like a mild lift Thumper cam.

For my daily driver with a Magnum motor I got a cam from Oregon with 214/224 duration on a 110 lobe center.
It has a nice little noticeable lope that people comment on a lot, but right off idle it's smooth as can be and gets good fuel economy.
 
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A stock 340 cam would be a good match with dual exhaust.

How can you make a specific recommendation when we don't even know which engine he has yet? The 340 cam is a big big for a 318 if that's what it is, but as usual, we don't have all the information.

Nevermind, I saw the very last sentence. So it is a 318. So the 340 cam is a bit big for it, IMO. Something like trailbeast is talking about might work well, but his cam is a hydraulic roller, so that's comparing apples to oranges.
 
How can you make a specific recommendation when we don't even know which engine he has yet? The 340 cam is a big big for a 318 if that's what it is, but as usual, we don't have all the information.

Nevermind, I saw the very last sentence. So it is a 318. So the 340 cam is a bit big for it, IMO. Something like trailbeast is talking about might work well, but his cam is a hydraulic roller, so that's comparing apples to oranges.
Not hijacking the thread, but I like your choices of avatar photos lately Rusty:thumbsup:
 
I didn't see anywhere what the point of the new cam is.
Is it for added performance, or sound of the exhaust?

If for added performance then the cam is going to be different enough to need new springs and lifters, and then as a daily driver you will have to be careful about destroying the fuel economy. (and low end torque is critical for a daily)

If the point is just to make it sound a little meaner, get a cam made just for that.
Like a mild lift Thumper cam.

For my daily driver with a Magnum motor I got a cam from Oregon with 214/224 duration on a 110 lobe center.
It has a nice little noticeable lope that people comment on a lot, but right off idle it's smooth as can be and gets good fuel economy.
I believe you got your cam from Washington? At Oregon Cam grinding?
 
The cam upgrade is for performance, but better exhaust notes would be a bonus.

We have a 340 grind hydraulic cam in our otherwise stock 72 Dart .030 over 318 with a two barrel and it runs nice, but I couldn't tell it has anything different than stock.
Idle is smooth as can be, and it has the stock 318 springs.
It was a quick and easy swap, but I couldn't tell any performance differences though I never really drive it as it is the Wifes car.

Just a suggestion would be to talk to Oregon and tell them what you want out of it, then they can suggest a cam for it.
Phone: 360-256-7985
 
Talked with Ken at Oregon cam. He said that 318's respond big time to cam upgrades. Said with a stock stall, springs, 3.55's and 650cfm, performer intake he would recommend as big as 218/224 but that a 212/218 he called it their 1333 grind. I think it is the way to go. Thanks.
 
Talked with Ken at Oregon cam. He said that 318's respond big time to cam upgrades. Said with a stock stall, springs, 3.55's and 650cfm, performer intake he would recommend as big as 218/224 but that a 212/218 he called it their 1333 grind. I think it is the way to go. Thanks.

Just an FYI, with about 1/4 turn richer or leaner on the idle screws I can make the idle sound more radical, or milder either one.
As far as A/F ratio, I have a nice little lope at about 15:1 and near completely smooth idle at 13:1
 
The problem with smogger teeners is the low compression. They were designed/engineered/built to do a specific job, and they do it pretty well. The problem comes when we expect results from it that comes from hi-compression 340 thinking.
With a stock 318 with its 240/248/112 cam and approximate 7.8 real Scr,and at 600ft elevation; the Wallace gives us a picture that looks like this
Static compression ratio of 7.8:1.
Effective stroke is 2.89 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 6.93:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 132.22 PSI.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 110.............................................. 110
Read about VP here
; V/P Index Calculation


VP paints a picture of the engines performance at the rpms we typically see in streeters., namely stall to 3000 or a bit more. 3000rpm with 3.55s comes to 25mph in first, and 43 in second. So when an engine has as little as 110VP, you know what that stock smogger feels like. And you certainly don't want any less low-rpm performance than that. Your first cheapest line against this is the rear gear, which you already took care of, to the tune of 3.55/2.76=plus 28.6% increase.This increase can be directly applied to your available engine torque at stall to see the performance improvement.
Your next go-to should be the TC. Comparing the 2500 to the 1800 we see the engine spool up the power curve an additional 700 rpm. Now stock teeners make peak torque just after 2500 maybe as late as 2800, and there is a pretty good amount of torque there, in fact rivaling or even exceeding a stock 340.
You can directly compare the performance increase with a little math.
Say at 1800 your teener makes 160 ftlbs and at 2500 it makes 200. This would represent a 200/160=plus 25% more torque. That's a really big deal.
Your total is now 28.6 plus 25=51.6%. Your combo will feel 51.6% more powerful at the start line.That makes a nice blast off.

Now lets go back to just the 3.55s and up cam it to 252*. Here's what your new VP looks like
Static compression ratio of 7.8:1.
Effective stroke is 2.82 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 6.78:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 128.35 PSI.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 104.................................................. 104
Notice the loss of; 1 less 110/104 =5.77% performance through-out the range of stall (1800) to about 3000 rpm or a little higher now. Almost 6% loss of VP in the rpm range most of your driving is gonna be, namely up to 25mph in first and from 25 to 41 in second. The only cure for this is to bring the cylinder pressure up.

Here is your smogger at 9.2Scr (about the max you can run it at, with the factory heads) and the 252 cam;
Static compression ratio of 9.2:1.
Effective stroke is 2.82 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 7.98:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is
159.81 PSI.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 130 ..................................... 130
Wow! 130 is a really really big deal, being 130/110=plus 18% stronger through-out the rpm range from stall to maybe 3500. But the pressure will make the difference from there all the way to shift-rpm.This is how you cure the low rpm performance blues. In fact, you could probably leave the 1800TC in there, and not notice any softness, as compared to the oem cam with the 2500TC.


Ok but I get that not everybody wants to slam pistons in it and machine decks etc. to get to 9.2cr.
Another option since the intake is coming off, might be to pull the heads and cut the deck surfaces
Another option might be a fast-ramp solid flat-tappet cam to maintain the early intake closing spec but faster everywhere else and with more lift. Either or both of these will bring some pressure to the table..... but not to the level of pistons.

And finally, if you do opt for a typical 252*HFT cam and experience the softening of the take-off performance....... you can still band-aid it with a higher stall TC, so you don't notice it. The only downside to this is you don't get the fuel-efficiency that high-compression/low-stall brings to the table, that the 3.55s took away.
And I guess I should add that the 252 cam might not show as big an improvement as one might expect, cuz in your combo I did not read that she was getting headers ...... so I assume she will be wearing the teener logs.

If you go the modest FTH route I highly recommend to establish a performance barometer with the 4bbl and well-tuned teener, the factory cam, and the factory TC, perhaps a collection of timed zero to 50 runs. Then you can repeat the tests with the 252 cam; and again with the TC of your choice. This will leave no doubt in your mind s to whether or not the time and trouble was worth it. I use the G-tech Pro-SS, but a stopwatch works not bad in the hands of a helper, sitting in the backseat, watching the speedO over your shoulder. The G-tech can data-log and create horsepower graphs.

Ok but not to leave you hanging, here is the stock smogger with the stock cam and just a compression boost to 9.0
Static compression ratio of 9.0:1.
Effective stroke is 2.89 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 7.97:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 159.55 PSI.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 133 ............................................................ 133VP
Wait! Where have we seen that before lol. Sometimes less is more.

This would give you more torque,more power at the rpms you normally drive at, and more fuel efficiency so more gas-money in your pocket. The downside is a slight LOSS of ET from say 4000 to 5000(the shiftrpm of the 252 cam); which with 3.55s will be from 57.5 to 72 mph in second gear (so in town,no big deal there); and from 34 to 42mph in first gear (still no big deal IF she's still spinning there,lol, and if not then,really it's) just 8 mph. The rest of the time that 9.0 is working hard for you, and saving you cash at the pump.
And if you have never had an SBM that makes 160psi, man you are in for a treat.
Look out!!,if you decide to up the compression you need to match it to the cam, cuz otherwise your results will vary, and it may get ugly if you get the pressure too high. The calculator is your friend; click the link below
Wallace Racing: Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator

Happy HotRodding

For those that might want to know; I used 48*Ica for the factory 240/112 cam, and 52*Ica for the 252/110 cam, and 600ft for location elevation.
 
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