Pistons specs question for 340 build

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And that's correct. What's getting lost and dazed and confused is, we're talking about two different things. Piston volume is not the same as chamber/cylinder volume. That's where the problem is.....and it should never have been measured like that. They should have measured pistons in the same manner as chamber and cylinder volume, but somewhere along the way somebody glommed up the works tryin to be "smart".
Agree, which is why i said it was a symantec problem. The terms get confused, and twisted all out of shape.
My bottom line.....? Do good measurements of your engine, and pay attention to how your calculator wants those measurements entered! Good info in, good results. Garbage in, garbage out.
 
All of these are in a column marked "effective dome volume".

I would guess that the values in that column with no -ve or +ve can be taken as positive. Since the dome or dish/reliefs modify the crown, I think we can safely say by now that if it's adding to the crown volume it's a positive value and taking away volume then it will be negative. These values are used in the formula for working out the CR, so I assume (without knowing for sure) that there might be a value allocated as a constant for a totally flat top piston that is perfectly level with the deck.
 
I would guess that the values in that column with no -ve or +ve can be taken as positive. Since the dome or dish/reliefs modify the crown, I think we can safely say by now that if it's adding to the crown volume it's a positive value and taking away volume then it will be negative. These values are used in the formula for working out the CR, so I assume (without knowing for sure) that there might be a value allocated as a constant for a totally flat top piston that is perfectly level with the deck.
Assuming is dangerous. Pick out a calculator you like, and study how it wants the values entered. The numbers asked for will tell you whats important. Deck height, how far a piston is down in the hole, or not, has a HUGE effect on compression ratio.
For example, my old trw book lists two 340 pistons, 2316 with a minus 7.5ccs for the valve reliefs, with a comp.height of 1.84. Also lists 2322, 10.7cc dome, ch of 1.839. You can calculate where those pistons would be in a blueprinted deck, but until you measure, in YOUR block, calculations are garbage.
Edit. Yes, a perfectly flat top piston, at perfect. 000 deck, has a value for deck height volume.......zero. That situation almost never happens.
2nd edit. Those trw 340 pistons referenced above....the flattop weighed 720-750 grams, depending on overbore. The domes were 662-680, with a 250% tighter weight + or - tolerance. Both used a 154 gr pin. (Both were forged pistons).
Worst case scenario.... 900+grams, plus rings and pin clips.
 
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Summit has these for that same price so maybe that's a normal price but they don't have them in 030 over. Will have to see if they can order them

Edit: One and a half hours later, I have called up Summit and they did a special order SRP Forged Flat top for me from the manufacturer - piston and rings set $546.47.
What timeline they give you for delivery ? or did they say when we get them we will ship
 
My 1989 TRW catalog shows a 2295 dome piston as 13.1/12.1 cc. No plus or minus.
It shows a 2266 as "flat head" (no cc rating) cause its a flat top with no reliefs.
It shows a 2355 (six pack, four relief flat top) as minus 7cc.
It shows 2399 (my 454 chevy piston, small dome, with an exhaust valve relief) as 13.8 cc. (No plus or minus)
All of these are in a column marked "effective dome volume".


That’s because TRW plays fast and loose with dome volumes. Those pistons are about a 6-7 CC dome when you subtract the valve notches. That’s why guys have much lower compression ratios than they think because they don’t measure the actual dome volume.
 
That’s because TRW plays fast and loose with dome volumes. Those pistons are about a 6-7 CC dome when you subtract the valve notches. That’s why guys have much lower compression ratios than they think because they don’t measure the actual dome volume.
the weights were all over the place as well . took a lot of work to get those old TRW pistons to weigh the same
 
the weights were all over the place as well . took a lot of work to get those old TRW pistons to weigh the same
Catalog says plus or minus 10gr for the flattops, plus or minus 4gr for the domes, and plus or minus 4gr for the pins.
Edit: just for gjggles i ran the numbers on those 340 trw's. Supposedly around .050 out of the hole. ???
 
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What timeline they give you for delivery ? or did they say when we get them we will ship
Both - they said around 30 Aug they will get them & ship them - maybe they have to manufacture them yet, I don't know for sure. Seems like a bargain because this sale has rings included for exactly the same price as Summit has the standard bore JE SRP pistons advertised for without rings . It's not Summit, it's JE doing that pricing.
 
Catalog says plus or minus 10gr for the flattops, plus or minus 4gr for the domes, and plus or minus 4gr for the pins.
Edit: just for gjggles i ran the numbers on those 340 trw's. Supposedly around .050 out of the hole. ???
4 grams sounds about right , had to take between 1 to 3 grams outof the pistons to get them right , they were 12.5 440 pistons
 
4 grams sounds about right , had to take between 1 to 3 grams outof the pistons to get them right , they were 12.5 440 pistons
If they were the 2295 "12 1/2" (ha ha ha!) pistons, they were a bunch, a BIG bunch under 12 1/2 to one. Blueprinted deck, maybe 11 1/2. Thrown together, likely 10 1/2.
I have some real 12 1/2 arias, that have three times the dome of a 2295, and the are still down in the hole enough to be 11 1/2 to one.
 
That’s because TRW plays fast and loose with dome volumes. Those pistons are about a 6-7 CC dome when you subtract the valve notches. That’s why guys have much lower compression ratios than they think because they don’t measure the actual dome volume.

I'll tell you something else. Hardly anyone EVER includes the correct chamber volume, either. How you ask? Unless you do a .500" down fill of the cylinder, you don't know what you have. You must do that to include everything above the top ring. Most people leave that area out and it can be pretty big, especially with pistons like the KB hypers, with the top rings further down than a standard piston. Without the area from the top of the top ring to the piston top added in, your calculations will not be correct.
 
I have calculated the combustion space around the top of the piston down to the first ring. I get somewhere between .5 and .6 cc. It could be double that with a kb hyper. I dont think that is hugely significant. But i agree, someone thinks they have a 12cc dome, and its really 7, or thinks the have a 10cc dish, and its really 23........?
 
I have calculated the combustion space around the top of the piston down to the first ring. I get somewhere between .5 and .6 cc. It could be double that with a kb hyper. I dont think that is hugely significant. But i agree, someone thinks they have a 12cc dome, and its really 7, or thinks the have a 10cc dish, and its really 23........?

If it's double that, that's 1cc or more. You ever seen 1cc in a hypodermic syringe? It's a LOT.
 
Yes, a lot of people neglect that small space between the top ring and the top of the piston. The only way to work your engine out accurately is measure everything on your own engine yourself, with cc'ing equipment or make up your own stuff like I have. Most people won't have a pipette or burette but some various size syringes are a good start: 1ml = 1cc, so syringes in 1ml, 3ml, 5 ml and 10ml are a good start + obviously a depth gauge, which most digital vernier calipers have built in. Checking a piston dish cc is easy but working out a dome is more difficult. If a manufacturer states their dome is whatever cc then this shouldn't be taken as error, it should be taken as correct, but measuring at least a few to be certain, for peace of mind. I would probably use some Play-Doh or Clay to get the dome to make an impression and measure that space with the kit. I'm sure you guys have your own ways.
 
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