Power Steering bracket/pulleys help please.

[Rbob]

67 Cuda with 73 K-frame/disc brake setup with 273, I have upgraded the front timing cover to 70'a style and aluminum water pump.

Something tells me I will have issues lining up the pulleys and not sure on what brackets to use. Mine came with the federal pump.

The 73+ steering gear /pump is a saginaw from a 6cyl and came with pump only with no brackets.

So what is easiest? Do I need different brackets when switching to aluminum water pump and 70's style front cover?

Maybe its better to go with the saginaw, not sure which way to go.

 

[Oldmanmopar]

Where are you located

 

[BillGrissom]

I went thru this with my 65 273. I switched to the alum water pump to match a new radiator, which started a cascade. Are you sure yours is the Federal pump, also known as "Chrysler pump" and not the similar looking earlier "TRW pump"? The former has 1 bolt on the rear and the later 2 bolts in a long channel. As far as I know, no brackets were made to mount a TRW pump on the alum w.p., which I discovered after rebuilding my TRW pump and painting it real purty. I ended up buying a Federal pump ($50 rockauto) and new brackets (~$70 Bouchillon or such).

Pulleys were made in every combination you can imagine, and the grooves fall different places depending on the crank damper (varying thicknesses). The alternator is easy to fit since you can easily space it in and out and many have 2 grooves. I could post photos, but probably won't help you since my p.s. pump runs off the outer of 3 crank grooves on an alum add-on pulley from my dealer Tecumseh AC compressor, as I recall. I hope to mount a smaller Sanden compressor, maybe sharing the alt belt, but haven't worked that out, though I got an AC bracket off an 80's SB that may help. My 64 slant is so easy, no p.s., no A.C., just one belt.

Note that if 2 belts go to the same device (ex. Mopar V-twin compressor), they better be on the same diameter crank grooves (can vary), otherwise one will have to slide and will quickly squeal itself to death. Also, besides lining up grooves, it kind of matters the diameters so the devices turn at the proper speeds. Racers like to use larger "under-drive" pulleys on components so they turn slower. Some new Hemi owners have caused big problems by doing that (shattered cranks!).

 

[Rbob]

Oldmanmopar, I am from Washington State. Fixed my heading and signature, now gotta put my car in my signature.

Billgrissom,

I can take a closer look tonight at the pump but here is a pic:

Never easy.

 

[BillGrissom]

You probably have the TRW pump, but I think it looks identical to the Federal pump from the front. I think only the TRW pump was used with the cast iron water pump of your photo, and your brackets look the same as those on my TRW pump.

Mounting to the alum water pump was harder for Mopar, and I think only the Federal and Saginaw pumps had brackets for that. The alum pump lost the outer pivot hole on the cast iron pump. One guess might be that aluminum would crack under the force. Instead, there is a steel triagular bracket that mounts to the bottom of the timing cover to seat the pivot bolt, and the Federal pump sits much lower. Indeed, mine barely clears the K-frame.

Below shows my setup. I have 3 crank grooves since my car had pwr steering and AC. However, the AC was dealer added, so the outer pulley and a bolt-on aluminum. My damper has the earlier "offset hole". If you get a later crank pulley, incl. most alum after-market ones, the holes will be evenly spaced, so you must file one hole to match your offset hole. You can find later steel 3-groove crank pulleys. Note that I have a short single groove alum water pump pulley. My original was a deep single pulley like yours. There are many ways to run the belts and mine may change when I mount a Sanden compressor.

From the valve covers and intake, it looks like you have the HiPo 273 with higher compression. Treasure that baby.

 

[Rbob]

Bill, thanks for the info and pic, so it looks like I will be pulling a saginaw pump, brackets and possibly a crank pulley off a late model 318 if I can find one.


This is what I love about this site! People taking their time to help others in need.

Thanks Fabo!
Yes on the Hipo 273, its a Commando 4sp car and I plan on driving it this summer. Probably should have went with the 360 and swapped the valve covers, oh well too late now.

 

[cudamark]

Yes, just get a set complete. Don't try to mix and match. A/C and non-A/C models are different from each other too.

 

[Rbob]

Why can't I swap a Federal pump into the same brackets the original TRW/Thompson bracket?

What a mess I have gotten into, I upgraded to an nice aluminum water pump and newer style front cover (timing mark on opposite side), bought a nice fluid damper and was going to buy a 70 style aluminum radiator to finish it off.

So my new plan is to buy a new cast iron water pump (flowkooler), buy an original style vibration damper (avoid the pulley's not lining up issue) which require newer style front cover for the timing marks and recore my original radiator with 3/4" tubes which flow about 1/3 more and keep my original fan shroud.

So I hope to swap in a federal pump and hope the pulleys line up, if not I will have to try another way.

Saginaw pumps sit low on drivers side and may be a problem with my lower radiator hose, not sure.

The brackets for the Federal pump are for a 70-72 with aluminum water pump.

Federal pumps are easy to get and TRW seem to be non existent.

Last option is rebuild my TRW pump and not sure where to get a kit for that, checked Rock auto and they list a kit for a Chrysler style pump so I can only assume it is TRW.

Anybody switch out just the pump?

 

[BillGrissom]

As you are finding, it all looks easy when done. Now you see why some people spend 5 minutes staring under the hood of someone else's car at an auto show and shaking their head. Only those who have been there can appreciate all the pitfalls. Even SBC guys deal with this (long vs short w.p.).

When cudamark said "complete set", he might also mean the crank damper too (balance might vary between forged & cast cranks), but since you are going back to the cast iron w.p., you won't be swapping. If you do swap pulleys, Rick Ehrenberg sells shims on ebay for all the pulleys which deal with the alignment issue. I have read that pulleys must be within 1/8" alignment for a V-belt. That is much more forgiving than serpentine belts (multi-V).

I think the only way you will fit a Federal pump on the TRW brackets would be to cut off the rear tab of the bracket, and then no going back. You would also need a different high pressure pwr steering hose for the Federal pump since it has an O-ring fitting instead of an inverted flare. The 73+ hose also has a different fitting at the p.s. gear, as I recall. I just swapped the whole valve body from a 73+ gear I had, I recall. I recall the return hose was bigger on the Federal pump too, but that worked with the valve body. Another can of worms.

I would just use a TRW pump. I recall rockauto lists rebuilt ones. I rebuilt mine with an Edelmann kit from rock (~$12). It wasn't hard. Just take photos so you put the slides back in correctly. I recall using a wrap of wire to hold the shoes in while I slid it home. You do need a pulley puller (Harbor Freight). This was before I found I couldn't use the TRW pump, but it will work fine on my Newport. You can find an old Chrysler video on the net extolling the new Federal pump, with a variable speed mode that makes it steal less power, so maybe a slight advantage.

 

[abodyjoe]

that set up is not correct... looks like you have the wrong crank and water pump pullies...

the power steering pump belt is only supposed to from the pump and go to the crank.

the alt. belt should go to the alt, water pump and crank.

your alt bracker and ps brackets look correct to me though....


here are the pullies that should be on it..

 

[abodyjoe]

67 Cuda with 73 K-frame/disc brake setup with 273, I have upgraded the front timing cover to 70'a style and aluminum water pump.

Something tells me I will have issues lining up the pulleys and not sure on what brackets to use. Mine came with the federal pump.

The 73+ steering gear /pump is a saginaw from a 6cyl and came with pump only with no brackets.

So what is easiest? Do I need different brackets when switching to aluminum water pump and 70's style front cover?

Maybe its better to go with the saginaw, not sure which way to go.

saginaw pump is probably easier to find and use..

the federal pump is fine but its harder to find the proper brackets.

 

[krazykuda]

I bought a set of early 70's pulleys (crank & water pump) for a small block with power steering and the alternator brackets from Mancini Racing last week.

 

[cudamark]

As you are finding, it all looks easy when done. Now you see why some people spend 5 minutes staring under the hood of someone else's car at an auto show and shaking their head. Only those who have been there can appreciate all the pitfalls. Even SBC guys deal with this (long vs short w.p.).

When cudamark said "complete set", he might also mean the crank damper too (balance might vary between forged & cast cranks), but since you are going back to the cast iron w.p., you won't be swapping. If you do swap pulleys, Rick Ehrenberg sells shims on ebay for all the pulleys which deal with the alignment issue. I have read that pulleys must be within 1/8" alignment for a V-belt. That is much more forgiving than serpentine belts (multi-V).

I think the only way you will fit a Federal pump on the TRW brackets would be to cut off the rear tab of the bracket, and then no going back. You would also need a different high pressure pwr steering hose for the Federal pump since it has an O-ring fitting instead of an inverted flare. The 73+ hose also has a different fitting at the p.s. gear, as I recall. I just swapped the whole valve body from a 73+ gear I had, I recall. I recall the return hose was bigger on the Federal pump too, but that worked with the valve body. Another can of worms.

I would just use a TRW pump. I recall rockauto lists rebuilt ones. I rebuilt mine with an Edelmann kit from rock (~$12). It wasn't hard. Just take photos so you put the slides back in correctly. I recall using a wrap of wire to hold the shoes in while I slid it home. You do need a pulley puller (Harbor Freight). This was before I found I couldn't use the TRW pump, but it will work fine on my Newport. You can find an old Chrysler video on the net extolling the new Federal pump, with a variable speed mode that makes it steal less power, so maybe a slight advantage.

I only remember having a harmonic balancer problem one time and I can't recall the reason for the interference. It was a cast crank big block balancer and some oddball pulley setup that didn't fit right. The crank pulley hit the weight on the balancer for some reason. We went with a different set and had no problem. There should be no problems with a flat balancer....it's the weighted ones that might not work with every application.