Pro and Cons of E85
- Thread starter Cudafever
- Start date
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I don't know much about E-85, but I have learned that the people who make it are very lax about quality control when it comes to actually seeing to it that is is, in fact, 85% methanol. Pump E-85 is all over the place regarding actual percentage of alcohol, and, therefore octane.
I wanted to use it for a fuel for my turbocharged car, but was scared off by its non-existent consistency. I don't know how to deal with that problem, short of purchasing it in 55-gallon barrels and testing and correcting it for percentage of alcohol.
I decided to buy $10.00/gal. race gas, instead. That gets old fast.... :banghead:
middleagecrisis
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Lots of discussion here on E85 use in street/race cars:
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/
Do a search in the engine & performance threads.
Pro;
High octane! Very high. Cheap price vs gasoline.
Con;
Octane as shown may not be all that. As mentioned quality is an issue. You can get testers to test the E-85 on the spot.
Availability. It is not everywhere you want it to be. You will have to know where it is before you go to a certain spot or route.
Less BTU return vs gasoline. This means you will need to use more fuel for the same distance traveled. Cruise or wide open throttle.
The secret (well, not really) is to run as high as a ratio as possible for the E-85 as so to try and off set the loss due to the lower BTU return.
High octane! Very high. Cheap price vs gasoline.
Con;
Octane as shown may not be all that. As mentioned quality is an issue. You can get testers to test the E-85 on the spot.
Availability. It is not everywhere you want it to be. You will have to know where it is before you go to a certain spot or route.
Less BTU return vs gasoline. This means you will need to use more fuel for the same distance traveled. Cruise or wide open throttle.
The secret (well, not really) is to run as high as a ratio as possible for the E-85 as so to try and off set the loss due to the lower BTU return.
Thats right where i'm at. not a street car so E85 inconsistency is bothersome. can buy E-85-R that come in a drum and is consistent as any other race gas(and is what i would do as i can't get it in my town.)
Hmm your pro and con are kinda lopsided LOL
Ok here is another question.
You hear all about alcohol eng's having to completely being drained from the system after each race because they are corrosive! I'm just not hearing any of that with E85? Is 15% gas "controlling" the corrosion factor????
I know i would have to change all my rubber hoses, but what about my steel lines? Alu carburetor???
Before I start, let me say this. I will never post info for someone else unless I know exactly what Im talking about. If I am a little uncertain, I will be up front and say so when I post.
Also, this is going to be a long post. Not because I'm a know it all, but because I want to help someone and give them all the info I can. I research things very hard befor making decisions, and I sometimes look for hours on the net wishing I could find a complete post with a lot of info.
I have two cars on E85 and can answer many questions about it. Let me say up front, not everyone may have the same opinion or practices that I do with it, but I dont have any trouble with any of my stuff.
To address the part about the fuel being inconsistent:
I have never found the percentage to be any higher than 83% at any of my local stations. In the winter time, it has been as low as 76%. What I have found is that it really doesnt matter a whole lot. I've run both ends and found that it is just as fast and consistent with 76% as it is 83%. There is still something about me that wants the higher percentage, even though I have proved to myself it doesnt matter. If you want the highest percentage, get the fuel in the middle of summer.
I get enough fuel to last me a full race season. I fill two 55 gallon drums, and this will last me all season. By doing it this way, the fuel you race on every week is the exact same percentage from week to week. Put it in plastic 55 gallon drums with sealed bungs. I use a manual pump that screws into the drum bungs to pump fuel into my jugs each week. Always keep the drums sealed up when not pumping. Metal drums will have condensation in them once the fuel level starts to go down. Some will call BS on that, but I challenge them to look inside the drums with a flash light during the right conditions and they will see water beading up inside the drum walls. Thats why I use plastic now, and have not seen an issue since going that route.
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DRAIN E85 BETWEEN RACES. It will be fine and does no harm that I have seen. The most important thing is to add Lucas Ethanol Stabilizer to your drums. It acts as a sort of top lube and also conditions the ethanol, and stabilizes it. This is the green fluid that Lucas sells in walmart and all the major parts stores. It does not seperate from the fuel after a while the way others do.
The only thing that can sometimes give a problem, is metering blocks can sometimes get stopped up if the car sits for a few weeks at a time. The E85 will sometimes take on a vaseline texture, and stop up the metering block holes. You will know, because the car will not want to idle. At that point taking off the metering blocks and blowing through the holes with carb cleaner and air will do the trick, and it will run like a kitten when you put them back on. The only way I have found to eliminate this, is to crank the car up once a week and let it get to 190 degrees before shutting it down. You will have none of those problems if you do that.
When cranking the car, always let it get to 180-190 degrees before turning it off. This will keep your oil from getting milky. It does not let moisture enter the system because the heat keeps it evaporated or "steamed out" of the crank case. Ethanol is no different than methanol when it comes to water. It draws water or moisture to it, and thats what milks the oil. If the oil is hot when you cut the car off, any traces of fuel that may have went by the rings, will not be able to hold the moisture because of the heat.
As far as what you need to run it:
Carb, bypass fuel regulator rated for methanol, fuel pump rated for methanol, and a return line from the regulator to the fuel cell. I personally dont run a filter on my system. I do use a high micron filter in my fuel funnel, and any fuel that goes in the fuel cell has to go through that first. I have a 10an fitting in my fuel cell, with a 10an line feeding the fuel pump. After the pump, everything is 8an including the return line.
For me personally, E85 is the best thing Ive done for my bracket racing. The car runs cooler, it doesnt slow down much at all when the heat of summer comes, and it is absolutely dead nuts consistent. Both of my cars repeat numbers like clock work. I have so much trust in them, that I dont hold numbers, and play games that the other guys do in bracket racing. We have guys at our tracks that hold numbers and are really good at it. They dont do it very much anymore when they race me. I have run dead on many times against them, and they have learned that anything close at the finish line, and Im not going to lift. Thats not the driver, thats the E85.
The pro's outway the cons by far with using it in a race car. I wouldn't go back to race gas, if someone was going to buy it for me.
Two other things that help:
Never stage the car at less than 170 degrees.
Use a lean out valve to help build heat in the engine quicker. I use the large nipple on the rear of the carb. Hook a rubber hose to it, and run it through the firewall into the car. on the other end of the hose, use a ball valve. I have mine connected to the right hand side of my seat bracket, so that I can reach it even if im strapped in. If you need to build some heat in the engine, simply reach down and open the ball valve. This will lean the engine out at idle, and create more heat in the engine at a faster rate. when its at your desired temp, shut the ball valve off.
Hope all of this helps someone.
Also, this is going to be a long post. Not because I'm a know it all, but because I want to help someone and give them all the info I can. I research things very hard befor making decisions, and I sometimes look for hours on the net wishing I could find a complete post with a lot of info.
I have two cars on E85 and can answer many questions about it. Let me say up front, not everyone may have the same opinion or practices that I do with it, but I dont have any trouble with any of my stuff.
To address the part about the fuel being inconsistent:
I have never found the percentage to be any higher than 83% at any of my local stations. In the winter time, it has been as low as 76%. What I have found is that it really doesnt matter a whole lot. I've run both ends and found that it is just as fast and consistent with 76% as it is 83%. There is still something about me that wants the higher percentage, even though I have proved to myself it doesnt matter. If you want the highest percentage, get the fuel in the middle of summer.
I get enough fuel to last me a full race season. I fill two 55 gallon drums, and this will last me all season. By doing it this way, the fuel you race on every week is the exact same percentage from week to week. Put it in plastic 55 gallon drums with sealed bungs. I use a manual pump that screws into the drum bungs to pump fuel into my jugs each week. Always keep the drums sealed up when not pumping. Metal drums will have condensation in them once the fuel level starts to go down. Some will call BS on that, but I challenge them to look inside the drums with a flash light during the right conditions and they will see water beading up inside the drum walls. Thats why I use plastic now, and have not seen an issue since going that route.
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DRAIN E85 BETWEEN RACES. It will be fine and does no harm that I have seen. The most important thing is to add Lucas Ethanol Stabilizer to your drums. It acts as a sort of top lube and also conditions the ethanol, and stabilizes it. This is the green fluid that Lucas sells in walmart and all the major parts stores. It does not seperate from the fuel after a while the way others do.
The only thing that can sometimes give a problem, is metering blocks can sometimes get stopped up if the car sits for a few weeks at a time. The E85 will sometimes take on a vaseline texture, and stop up the metering block holes. You will know, because the car will not want to idle. At that point taking off the metering blocks and blowing through the holes with carb cleaner and air will do the trick, and it will run like a kitten when you put them back on. The only way I have found to eliminate this, is to crank the car up once a week and let it get to 190 degrees before shutting it down. You will have none of those problems if you do that.
When cranking the car, always let it get to 180-190 degrees before turning it off. This will keep your oil from getting milky. It does not let moisture enter the system because the heat keeps it evaporated or "steamed out" of the crank case. Ethanol is no different than methanol when it comes to water. It draws water or moisture to it, and thats what milks the oil. If the oil is hot when you cut the car off, any traces of fuel that may have went by the rings, will not be able to hold the moisture because of the heat.
As far as what you need to run it:
Carb, bypass fuel regulator rated for methanol, fuel pump rated for methanol, and a return line from the regulator to the fuel cell. I personally dont run a filter on my system. I do use a high micron filter in my fuel funnel, and any fuel that goes in the fuel cell has to go through that first. I have a 10an fitting in my fuel cell, with a 10an line feeding the fuel pump. After the pump, everything is 8an including the return line.
For me personally, E85 is the best thing Ive done for my bracket racing. The car runs cooler, it doesnt slow down much at all when the heat of summer comes, and it is absolutely dead nuts consistent. Both of my cars repeat numbers like clock work. I have so much trust in them, that I dont hold numbers, and play games that the other guys do in bracket racing. We have guys at our tracks that hold numbers and are really good at it. They dont do it very much anymore when they race me. I have run dead on many times against them, and they have learned that anything close at the finish line, and Im not going to lift. Thats not the driver, thats the E85.
The pro's outway the cons by far with using it in a race car. I wouldn't go back to race gas, if someone was going to buy it for me.
Two other things that help:
Never stage the car at less than 170 degrees.
Use a lean out valve to help build heat in the engine quicker. I use the large nipple on the rear of the carb. Hook a rubber hose to it, and run it through the firewall into the car. on the other end of the hose, use a ball valve. I have mine connected to the right hand side of my seat bracket, so that I can reach it even if im strapped in. If you need to build some heat in the engine, simply reach down and open the ball valve. This will lean the engine out at idle, and create more heat in the engine at a faster rate. when its at your desired temp, shut the ball valve off.
Hope all of this helps someone.
Breadburner
Well-Known Member
Storing that much fuel in plastic drums is a terrible idea.......
Cudafever, I wish I could be of more help. Sorry I can not.
71gtdart, thanks for the write up.
71gtdart, thanks for the write up.
WOW Thank you vary much!!!
It's very interesting that the big swing in pump E85 don't affect the performance. aka ET
My biggest problem is in the heat of the summer. Cool spring, and fall runs consistent. I spent a lot of time in the cooling system of my new motor because of this and haven't put it to the test yet.
Interesting about the metal to plastic drums. figured plastic would be a NO NO! Also, interesting that it become more like slime them corrosive to the carb.
How do you prep your car for winter storage or when you're not going to race for a while.
It's a hundred mile drive to the closest E85 station. but, filling a drum or two will i was there would make it work. With the fuel stabilizer, how long can you store it??
Which is more corrosive methanol or ethanol????
Great concept on the lean out valve!!!!!
It's very interesting that the big swing in pump E85 don't affect the performance. aka ET
My biggest problem is in the heat of the summer. Cool spring, and fall runs consistent. I spent a lot of time in the cooling system of my new motor because of this and haven't put it to the test yet.
Interesting about the metal to plastic drums. figured plastic would be a NO NO! Also, interesting that it become more like slime them corrosive to the carb.
How do you prep your car for winter storage or when you're not going to race for a while.
It's a hundred mile drive to the closest E85 station. but, filling a drum or two will i was there would make it work. With the fuel stabilizer, how long can you store it??
Which is more corrosive methanol or ethanol????
Great concept on the lean out valve!!!!!
rumblefish you have given me more good info then you will ever realize. I just had to give you a little ribbing.
You say, "The pro's outway the cons by far with using it in a race car. I wouldn't go back to race gas, if someone was going to buy it for me."
Is your car turbocharged or supercharged? I am thinking, probably not, because the consistency problem that forced-induction cars have, keep them from being favorites in Bracket racing, but, that's just a guess.
My car is a high-boost car that depends on reliable octane numbers to keep it out of detonation with 25 pounds of boost, so, I depend on octane I can count on to prevent engine "accidents." Insufficient octane, combined with too-aggressive spark events and excessive boost can destroy an engine in the twinkling of an eye.
I think E-85 could be the fuel for me but, I am not sure the hoops I'd have to jump through (buying it 55-gallons at a time, testing and maybe, modifying it to "meet specifications" for the way I want to tune/run my motor, would be worth it for me, just a hobby-racer who is not intent on winning bracket races.
But, thanks a lot for all the good information! Sounds like you have a workable plan!:coffee2:
Is your car turbocharged or supercharged? I am thinking, probably not, because the consistency problem that forced-induction cars have, keep them from being favorites in Bracket racing, but, that's just a guess.
My car is a high-boost car that depends on reliable octane numbers to keep it out of detonation with 25 pounds of boost, so, I depend on octane I can count on to prevent engine "accidents." Insufficient octane, combined with too-aggressive spark events and excessive boost can destroy an engine in the twinkling of an eye.
I think E-85 could be the fuel for me but, I am not sure the hoops I'd have to jump through (buying it 55-gallons at a time, testing and maybe, modifying it to "meet specifications" for the way I want to tune/run my motor, would be worth it for me, just a hobby-racer who is not intent on winning bracket races.
But, thanks a lot for all the good information! Sounds like you have a workable plan!:coffee2:
Bill,
Remember that you can by E-85-R that is just as consistent as any other race gas.
You buy High octane racing fuel in a drum anyways, right?
I know there will be a learning curve for sure with this stuff. But running a fuel that creates less heat,(causing a cooling affect) is alway a good thing, in a boosted eng, right?
E-85-R may not have as high of octane as your running. But just like a better/more efficient intercooler, a cooler fuel might work just as well.
From what i have read, they say, that even though it around 100-110 octane(depending who you talk to). Because of it's great cooling effect, that it works as well as much higher octanes race gas.
Remember that you can by E-85-R that is just as consistent as any other race gas.
You buy High octane racing fuel in a drum anyways, right?
I know there will be a learning curve for sure with this stuff. But running a fuel that creates less heat,(causing a cooling affect) is alway a good thing, in a boosted eng, right?
E-85-R may not have as high of octane as your running. But just like a better/more efficient intercooler, a cooler fuel might work just as well.
From what i have read, they say, that even though it around 100-110 octane(depending who you talk to). Because of it's great cooling effect, that it works as well as much higher octanes race gas.
I have 3 cars running e85....only thing i changed on car from gas to e85 was the carb..bought new QFT 950-E85....change fuel filter from paper cartridge to screen...using the same rubber line steel braided line...for 4 years now.....
no return line...run the same old chinese holley black 140 gph fuel pump...paid 50 bucks off ebay.....
engine runs cool...especially out here in Vegas...dont drain lines between races..I do drain over the winter shut down...
buy the fuel from the same station...checked it alot at the beginning never varied more then a couple of percent..
on Friday bought 22 gallons at 1.85.. 41 dollars....pump next to it had racing gas 8 dollar a gallon ...22 x 8 176 dollars...saved 135 bucks...
no return line...run the same old chinese holley black 140 gph fuel pump...paid 50 bucks off ebay.....
engine runs cool...especially out here in Vegas...dont drain lines between races..I do drain over the winter shut down...
buy the fuel from the same station...checked it alot at the beginning never varied more then a couple of percent..
on Friday bought 22 gallons at 1.85.. 41 dollars....pump next to it had racing gas 8 dollar a gallon ...22 x 8 176 dollars...saved 135 bucks...
Number one; I have never heard of F-85 R and am ignorant of how it differs from regular E-85. Fill me in, please.
Number two, I don't race that much, so, I never buy 55 gallons of anything at a time. Because I am still in a "tuning" mode and still learning (watching my A/F ratios, closely,) I still have the oxygen sensor installed and it absolutely won't tolerate any lead in the fuel, so, I have to buy unleaded racing fuel at about $10.00 a gallon. As you might imagine, that is not one of my favorite things to do... so, I am always looking for alternatives.
I don't know what A/F ratio would be recommended for E-85-R. For racing gas, under boost, it is 11.5:1.
Thanks for any information!:cheers:
SRT_DSTRHOLC
Well-Known Member
I have an e85 carb I can sell you. Was converted to e85 by one of the best, mark Sullens. I paid 1300 because I bought the carb new from him. It's an ultra aluminum xp. 750 dp. Has less than 300 miles on it. I only want the price I paid for the carb without the conversion. 800 plus shipping
71gtdart
To prevent your gummed up carb, why don't you shutdown by running the carb dry?
I do that with my motorcycle and lawnmower (only E10) and haven't gummed up since I started do it.......
(added fuel shutoff valve to the lawnmower, motorcycle already has one)
To prevent your gummed up carb, why don't you shutdown by running the carb dry?
I do that with my motorcycle and lawnmower (only E10) and haven't gummed up since I started do it.......
(added fuel shutoff valve to the lawnmower, motorcycle already has one)
I have read what the A/F ratio is for E-85 and don't' remember what it was.
E-85-R is a racing fuel you buy from someone like Sunoco and is guaranteed to be 85% methanol. taking the guess out of it
Bill, here is a link to E-85- OK so it's actually E85-R
http://www.racegas.com/fuel/18
and A/F ratio is: Stoichiometric Air/Fuel Ratio 9.8
http://www.racegas.com/fuel/18
and A/F ratio is: Stoichiometric Air/Fuel Ratio 9.8
Thanks for the good information. I appreciate it!
I think the stoichiometric ratio for gasoline is 14.7:1, but they recommend a ratio of 11.5:1 for boosted engines, so, I wonder what that E-85-R number changes to, under 20 pounds of boost. Probably, a lot richer.....
the stoichiometric air-fuel ratio. For the most common fuels, this, however, is not necessary because the ratios are known:
Natural gas: 17.2
Gasoline: 14.7
Propane: 15.5
Ethanol: 9
Methanol: 6.4
Hydrogen: 34
Diesel: 14.6
from: http://www.brighthubengineering.com/machine-design/15235-the-stoichiometric-air-fuel-ratio/
E85 would be .85*9 + .15*14.7 = 9.855
For the same amount of boost enrichment (I'm not sure you need the same)
11.5/14.7 * 9.855 = 7.71
With a wideband O2 sensor, either use lambda mode or just pretend you're running gasoline (the 7.71 will show as 11.5)
Natural gas: 17.2
Gasoline: 14.7
Propane: 15.5
Ethanol: 9
Methanol: 6.4
Hydrogen: 34
Diesel: 14.6
from: http://www.brighthubengineering.com/machine-design/15235-the-stoichiometric-air-fuel-ratio/
E85 would be .85*9 + .15*14.7 = 9.855
For the same amount of boost enrichment (I'm not sure you need the same)
11.5/14.7 * 9.855 = 7.71
With a wideband O2 sensor, either use lambda mode or just pretend you're running gasoline (the 7.71 will show as 11.5)
For winter storage, I normally drain the fuel system of E85, and fill it back with race gas. I also put my gas carb back on, and I crank the car about every two weeks and let it get up to temp. I just do this to keep it running and not sitting for 3 months.
I take the E85 carb apart and give it a good cleaning. I then fill it with Marvel Mystery Oil and work the throttle until it pumps through the squirters. At that point, I wrap it tight in an old t shirt and put it in a small trash bag wrapped tight on the shelf.
We have had great luck with fuel that has been stored as long as a year when used with the Lucas.
Methanol is by far more corrosive than Ethanol.
This is obviously another way to go about using E85 that differs from what I do or have as far as equipment. I had forgot that Tony runs his cars on E85 as well.
I would not be scared to use his set up advice at all, as he has proven helpful to many people here, before.
I was told from the start to treat the entire system like it was going to be run on methanol, so thats why I have the return line and bypass regulator. Tony's way obviously works as well.
I tried this at first, and always seemed to get a dry chalky substance in the carb. I see that Tony runs his dry, so obviously he doesnt have this issue.
Not sure why it does this with me. I cant remember if I was using the Lucas Stabilizer then or not, and it may not make any difference.
Interested as to why that is?
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