QUESTION FOR UCA BALL JOINT SEPARATION

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71340Duster

71340Duster

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I am trying to separate the upper ball joint. I cannot fully bolt the control arm into the frame as I've found that the A arm is somehow spread. I've bolted in one side and given new, never driven ball joint some pretty good whacks with the fork. "I'm New" so just checking, I don't have to use a socket first, the 1 59/64's ball joint is threaded into the arm only, not the spindle, correct? I did not use any break free, didn't figure I'd need to. Any ideas?
 
Yeah, you are in trouble,lol.
You are correct the BJ is threaded into the UCA only.
If the upper arm cannot be stabilized, then it will be very difficult to blow that joint apart without a bit of heat. If you are familiar with a torch, this is not a big job.
But to blow it apart cold, that joint will need to be rendered immobile, then the pickle fork will make short work of it.
There is also available, a small tool that is inserted between the BJs and then screwed apart to put a tremendous amount of separation pressure between them, and then a whack or two pops it apart.
The pickle fork method will require that the entire assembly be removed and stabilized in a vice on a very heavy workbench, or stabilized in a press or on a concrete floor.
The screwpress may work in-situ.
The torch is fast and easy, but you need to know what you are doing to not spoil the knuckle.
If the BJ is to be replaced then just get the nut off, flip the whole thing upside down and whack the stud a time or two with a serious hammer. Whack it like you really mean it. I usually just back the nut off to the end of the threads so I have a bigger target to aim for. But a time or two this has backfired, cuz when it breaks free and if the nut won't come off, then you have a new problem.
You can also play an air hammer along the knuckle where the stud is fixed and the vibration will often pop it loose.This method has often worked for me. it too can be worked in-situ, but you need a pretty decent compressor to keep up to the air-hammer.
But I'll tell you a secret; I do all this stuff BEFORE the arm ever comes off the frame. It just makes it so much easier. Just wait until you try to uncsrew that upper BJ! Hah! Sorry, I couldn't resist that. Ok seriously, that UCA HAS to be bolted in to cuz we need the weight of the entire car to stabilize that guy in the fore and aft direction. Further-more we need the rest of the parts installed to stabilize the arm in a vertical direction. The T-bar can be out, and for me is preferred. Then with the special BJ socket, and the biggest 1/2" J-bar in Snap-Ons arsenal and a 4ft cheater bar, get ready to have at it. You will have to lay on your back under the car, so make sure there is no way it can fall on you-NO WAY! Then stick your legs up in there somewhere to push on something solid. Then PULL, PULL , PULL!
Those suckers are some seriously tight! You are gonna need your spinach,popeye!
No, I don't think you can do this any other way;at least I have never been able to. At least with a drive-on hoist, I didn't have to lay on my back anymore. But the absence of my leg power, required a much longer bar.And the chassis had to be well anchored, cuz the force of the 6ft bar wanted to drive it right off the jack! Look out!when it first breaks free. The sudden movement usually collapses the entire set-up, and sent me flying. Laying under the car, this can mean skinned knuckles and who knows where the flying socket will land?I do,I do! Yeah so wear head and eye protection,please.
I might as well tell you, of all the many many screw-in BJs I unscrewed; there were very few that were not this super-tight. Maybe you will get lucky.........
 
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Ok, thanks cause I haven't done an upper ball joint, just tie rod ends. I have a torch and an air chisel and my compressor will probably barely keep up, really don't want to resort to either just yet. I don't have to save the ball joint, but will if possible. I'm thinking I'll try soaking with PB blast and seeing if I can bolt the LCA in with NO washers on either side of either bushing. I honestly don't even know if I can cram it in there with no washers but I'll try. I really appreciate the response.
 
It takes force to break the fit of the tapered shaft. I have had some success with a tie rod puller, but even that sometimes requires a good smack with my 3lb sledge.
 
NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER heat a ball joint or any steering or suspension component with a torch! There is a nylon bushing in the joint that melts really easy and you WILL RUIN the joint! Also never heat with a torch any components that you plan on reusing because you will anneal the metal and weaken it. I'm sure that the guys who claim that they do it all the time will protest me but I do this for a living and I have taught Steering and Suspension at a Trade school. I have seen it happen many times.
The best way to do it is with a ball joint separating tool that uses screw pressure to pop the joint from the knuckle. A pickle fork works too but you risk damage to the boot. Most of the time guys just take the castle nut loose and then hit the knuckle with a hammer right outside where the tapered shaft of the joint goes through the knuckle. Hit the knuckle not the arm or joint. Just be careful not to hit the threads with the hammer. Put an old castle nut on the threads to protect them. Use a good heavy hammer. 32-48oz ball peen or a mallet. A few good wacks should pop it loose.
 
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OK wait!
If you are not planning to replace that upper BJ, then there is no reason to remove it, nor to separate it from the knuckle. Removing the BJ is a lot of unnecessary wear on the screw threads. And reinstalling it is a bit of a trick, and if you get it cross-threaded (easy to do), then you may be shopping for a replacement arm. You can easily measure the wear on that part prior to removal. But if you are just gonna remove the stud to facilitate bushing replacement, that I can understand.But then, of course, you cannot beat on the threaded pin.
If I was in your shoes, I would remove the brake system, unbolt the lower BJ and be left holding the assembled UCA and knuckle and there you have it. That can be worked with.
 
AJ/FormS said:
OK wait!
If you are not planning to replace that upper BJ, then there is no reason to remove it, nor to separate it from the knuckle. Removing the BJ is a lot of unnecessary wear on the screw threads. And reinstalling it is a bit of a trick, and if you get it cross-threaded (easy to do), then you may be shopping for a replacement arm. You can easily measure the wear on that part prior to removal. But if you are just gonna remove the stud to facilitate bushing replacement, that I can understand.But then, of course, you cannot beat on the threaded pin.
If I was in your shoes, I would remove the brake system, unbolt the lower BJ and be left holding the assembled UCA and knuckle and there you have it. That can be worked with.
Click to expand...

BALL JOINT SEPARATOR.jpg
 
Plymouth Pete said:
This tool from China Freight has always worked for me.
Click to expand...

Nice, thanks. I was there today wish I would have seen this before hand. I purchased a 20 ton bearing press, also received via Ebay a socket for the ball joint. I'm picking up a control arm tomorrow, will let you know how it all turns out, thanks again for all the ideas.
 
Lonewolf3165 said:
NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER heat a ball joint or any steering or suspension component with a torch! There is a nylon bushing in the joint that melts really easy and you WILL RUIN the joint! Also never heat with a torch any components that you plan on reusing because you will anneal the metal and weaken it. I'm sure that the guys who claim that they do it all the time will protest me but I do this for a living and I have taught Steering and Suspension at a Trade school. I have seen it happen many times.
The best way to do it is with a ball joint separating tool that uses screw pressure to pop the joint from the knuckle. A pickle fork works too but you risk damage to the boot. Most of the time guys just take the castle nut loose and then hit the knuckle with a hammer right outside where the tapered shaft of the joint goes through the knuckle. Hit the knuckle not the arm or joint. Just be careful not to hit the threads with the hammer. Put an old castle nut on the threads to protect them. Use a good heavy hammer. 32-48oz ball peen or a mallet. A few good wacks should pop it loose.
Click to expand...
I doubt it would rise to the level of protest,lol! Certainly heat will wreck the joint itself if you don't work quickly, and you should avoid it if you have tools to get it done like the
above,(i have the OTC version). BUT, you should also not strike the knuckle to release a tapered stud just the same, if the hole"ovals" at all it can cause the replacement joint
stud to fail! That being said, I've been doing this professionally for over 31yrs., and everybody has done all of the above in the field w/o death and mayhem. Oh, and I have done
many UCA rebuilds on the bench, incl. the B-joint. I kill the bushings first, then slip a heavy wall pipe that fits the arm holes decent thru and clamp it in a good vice. An air gun
w/some balls usually takes them right out, and a little TLC from tommy the torch won't hurt if neccessary, no need to cherry the thing.
 
My sentiments exactly.
But
To a newbe, as in anyone reading this in the years to come, this in not a job that you can approach without some experience. Lonewolfs concerns are well-founded.
But
To those of us with experience,and working in a business environment, as, is/was, Lonewolf,sometimes/often,in front-end work, the torch can be your best friend.
I never worked for flat-rate, and the customers paid only for the work/time involved. My boss expected me to get the job done in a reasonably timely fashion.The torch often made this possible.I learned where to heat, how much to heat, and how hard to hit.I learned to use tools. I also learned when to stop and start over.This doesn't always happen on the first job thru the doors.
 
aj/forms , got a ball joint question , what the difference from the 65-72 disc brake(k/H) upper ball shank and the 73 up one ? do you know does anyone know ?
 
Sure
The early BJs have smaller bodies and pins. They only fit into matching UCAs and matching knuckles.
The 73up stuff is bigger bodied and larger shanked except the 9"drum stuff, which was a carry-over from the earlier style.Some say it mightof continued into 74,IDK
BTW, I've heard it said that the only difference in the UCAs, was the joint receiver.And I've also read about adapter bushings made to fit the small-pinned early BJs into the later large-socket knuckles. I haven't seen one.
 
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As to the tapers I cannot say, But If a bushing exists,I imagine yes. IDK, cuz I dont mess with front ends.

What I mean by that is I don't mess with factory engineering.I figure those guys are waaaay smarter than me, and their designs were meant to keep people alive, and I ain't messing with that!
-But yeah, they didn't put near enough caster into our As, but I know how to change that! Unfortunately cranking the caster up to 4or5 degrees is not without it's own problems.But they too, are not insurmountable.
-There doesn't seem to be a good reason tho, to have changed from the small-pins to the larger, unless it was maybe bearing material longevity, inside. But even that IDK, cuz both joints go about the same distance.And,I've never heard of any small-pin BJ coming apart. Further,I have not treated mine kindly; no autocrossing, but I jumped the car a few times,and hammer over speedbumps, and they say Manitoba has some of the worst roads in Canada, and I can't argue that cuz I have hammered through some pretty ugly potholes!,so IDK.
-I think maybe the small-pinners were a compromise,cuz you gotta remember that they were still putting 13" rims on these cars until the mid 60s. I wonder if a 13 with the correct pattern and bs would clear that badboy big-pinner?
-I put a 15x8 custom rally steel wheel small BP,on that KH set-up, and I had cranked a lot of bs (I no longer recall the measurement;4.25maybe),into it to put the scrub radius about where the factory had it. That was a bit of a chore. When the suspension drooped to the limit of the shock, the BJ and the wheel wanted to occupy the same space! It took a bit of grinding here and there to make it all work, and the wheel weights needed to be relocated.....I still have those WheelVintiques,only run one summer.
 
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Lonewolf3165 said:
NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER heat a ball joint or any steering or suspension component with a torch! There is a nylon bushing in the joint that melts really easy and you WILL RUIN the joint! Also never heat with a torch any components that you plan on reusing because you will anneal the metal and weaken it. I'm sure that the guys who claim that they do it all the time will protest me but I do this for a living and I have taught Steering and Suspension at a Trade school. I have seen it happen many times.
The best way to do it is with a ball joint separating tool that uses screw pressure to pop the joint from the knuckle. A pickle fork works too but you risk damage to the boot. Most of the time guys just take the castle nut loose and then hit the knuckle with a hammer right outside where the tapered shaft of the joint goes through the knuckle. Hit the knuckle not the arm or joint. Just be careful not to hit the threads with the hammer. Put an old castle nut on the threads to protect them. Use a good heavy hammer. 32-48oz ball peen or a mallet. A few good wacks should pop it loose.
Click to expand...
You almost got it right. Two hammers are needed. One nice big hammer, say 3#, to back up the blow from the 32 oz. causing a shock to release the tapered fit, but it rarely works if the joint is in a bind.
 
Until I had done a lot of measuring or test fitted another upper arm in those frame clips, I wouldn't remove the arm that's there. I guess my question is... Do we know without doubt that the arm is bent ?
The frame clips bend easier. I can imagine things being bent closed in a collision. I'm not imagining anything that would spread open in a collision. How that upper arm got spread is beyond my imagination.
 
RedFish said:
Until I had done a lot of measuring or test fitted another upper arm in those frame clips, I wouldn't remove the arm that's there. I guess my question is... Do we know without doubt that the arm is bent ?
The frame clips bend easier. I can imagine things being bent closed in a collision. I'm not imagining anything that would spread open in a collision. How that upper arm got spread is beyond my imagination.
Click to expand...

I agree it's hard to imagine and it seems like the bushings not being fully seated would be far more likely. I've checked the mounts, they are not bent. One thing I did do before buying another arm and popping the upper joint is run a 3/8's bolt trough the A arm (1/2" was too big). What I saw was if I ran that bolt down the bushings fit in the mounts with the proper spacing on both inner and outer washers on the bushings. This again tells me the arm is spread. I've done some rough side by sides with my "new" arm, it seems narrower in most positions.....but not all. I'm about to finish pulling the old arm off, put together my bearing press and tear both arms down.
IMG_1197.JPG
 
Thinking back to all the times I've noticed all 8 bushing end caps missing/omitted, I have to wonder if this fitment issue was present there also. Good luck with it.
 
Putting the fattest possible rod through those bushings will absolutely prove the arm is straight or not. The idea is to have one bushing steer the rod over to the other one, enter the tube and come out the other side, all-the-while NOT increasing the effort to do so. This does not work unless the rod is a tight-fit to the bushing. If it passes this test then the arm cannot be bent. It can still be spread, but that would be highly unlikely. That would point to a factory defective arm. And since I believe (my opinion) that the arm was dressed after it left the stamping machine, this would be incredibly (to me,at least),unusual. It is by far, easier for me to believe that those bushings are defective. And I still say without the locator cleats on those washers, I would not use them.I would have ZERO faith in the alignment staying put. Without the cleats, the location of the bushings is fully dependant on the cams and the clamping pressure of the nuts. And those are some pretty small nuts, and some pretty baggy cam locators.And if the washers fit OVER the tubes, there is nothing to prevent the spacer tubes from slipping into the adjuster slots, and POOF! away goes the clamp-pressure, along with the alignment........and maybe the whole project gets written off in a possibly ensuing accident, cuz with the caster and camber off in the wild blue yonder, so is the toe-in and then the car pretty much steers where ever it wants to.And even at just 30mph, the car is moving at 44 feet per second. That could be over 3 lanes in one second. And when you finally find the brake pedal, nothing does what you were expecting it to.......
So, now you are thinking that AJ has such an imagination! While I won't deny that,lol, I have been in a car that self-steered itself right into the ditch at 40/45mph. I had no time to re-act. It was up and over the curb, POOF went the tire, and the car dug huge ruts as it skidded to a stop. I never even got my foot to the brake pedal.
No I must clarify that the issue on this car was not a loose UCA, but rather a rusted out frame rail. But the results are the same; a change in camber leading to a change in toe, leading to a self-steering car.
Whatever you do, make sure that arm will stay where you put it;cuz finding out it didn't, can kill you.
 
I just can't buy into all that. I mean even if a end of the tube inside our upper arm bushing did go completely though a frame clip, it would not hog out the length of that slot and go all to hell in a heartbeat. On the other hand and speaking of heartbeat, the GM upper arm setup could and did toss their entire shim pack in a heartbeat ( mine included once upon a time ). Total lose of control did not occur.
 
I've got the press built and have measured the arms side by side. Old arm is appx. 5/32nds wider than "new" arm. I also noticed that these Moog (K7103 I think) are offset and have an indexing arrow, I'll have to make sure I put them back with the arrow pointed the same way in the new arm after I get it cleaned up.

IMG_1198.JPG


IMG_1200.JPG


IMG_1202.JPG
 
One more time; it matters not a hoot where the rib ends up. The only thing that matters is where the the turned out tube ends are finished to; these locate the bushings stop flange. And the next thing to be concerned about is that the bushings themselves are properly factory assembled.
So now that you have a replacement arm, and after the bushings are pressed out, measure that distance and compare the two. It may well be that the replacement arm is narrower there, the same way that it is narrower at the rib. And that would make the wide arm defective. But I think I would just have dressed the max dimension down to re-position the bushings where they need to be. Oh wait I am not in NewZealand,and I have spares. :) And now, you too have a spare!
 
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