Room for a Clutch-Fan in a '65?

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eekvonzipper

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I just upgraded the lil barracuda to a 4-Bbl, and of course I want jus' a little more.
Do I have room for a Clutch-Fan in here?
I swapped a 2 inch Fan Spacer for a 1 inch Spacer when I put the Chinesium Radiator in a couple years ago.
I have a Fixed Steel Fan in there. Is that Robbing some of my available power?
Should I just Leave it be? or is the Clutch an Option for this?

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man, that's pretty tight... if you have the room i personally don't see any reason not to.

i think the hayden 2947 is the shortest "lo profile" one available that will support the weight of a steel fan without shortening the lifespan.

just remember that you'll need 3/4" clearance to the rad.

anyway, 15hp is the generally accepted hp loss on a solid fan, or thereabouts.
 
On my 66 273 and factory radiator I have a clutch fan. I turned down a fan spacer to like 5/8” thick and use a Dakota pick up truck clutch fan set up. It’s like 17” diameter and the shortest, bolt on clutch fan I could find. The fan sits 3/8”-1/2” away from the radiator and the factory shroud works fine. Sorry no photos but if you pm me I can get a few. Your set up looks really tight to pull that off. I had my radiator recored and it was not cheap but the aluminum one I bought put it way to close to the engine and my only option was electric fans which barely fit.
Syleng1
 
I just upgraded the lil barracuda to a 4-Bbl, and of course I want jus' a little more.
Do I have room for a Clutch-Fan in here?
I swapped a 2 inch Fan Spacer for a 1 inch Spacer when I put the Chinesium Radiator in a couple years ago.
I have a Fixed Steel Fan in there. Is that Robbing some of my available power?
Should I just Leave it be? or is the Clutch an Option for this?

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The answer to your question, Not much. May be 1/2" at most. The clutch is the key. There is a thin one listed around here somewhere. You may have to search and read.
 
If you are trying to get that 10 or so HP back from the rotating weight from the steel fan, why not go to an electric and get that additional HP from not putting the clutch fan in at all???
 
If you are trying to get that 10 or so HP back from the rotating weight from the steel fan, why not go to an electric and get that additional HP from not putting the clutch fan in at all???
Honestly I feel eekvon zippers pain.
On the early set ups the slightest looseness of the fan belt and the dang thing squeals every excel. Mine had new pulleys and brand new proper sized belt.
So I’m sure it’s not the 10hp. A few degrees of timing will make up for it.
Overheating and squeal is the worst.
 
If you're having trouble with the belt not being tight enough, you can replace the alternator bracket with a rod with spherical bearing at each end, circle track style. Much easier to set and keep belt tension than a slot.
 
Belt Tension was never in question...
Is there a Clutch that fits between the old Iron Water Pump and a Chinese Radiator was the question.
 
the answer is: probably not. on my 64 dart when i went to a griffin rad from the stocker i had to switch back to a mechanically driven fan because there was zero-point-zero room. however, at the time hayden didn't offer the shorty clutch.

i also had switched previously to the 70+ style stuff, so the snout of the waterpump may have been longer-- but that all worked with the stock rad.

it appears that you already have the cast iron pump so that is probably the shortest snout (and your pulleys are all lined up!) so i'd measure it off and see where you're at. you might run into an issue that the clutch ***'y may not take a smaller diameter fan-- most of them are in the 17, 18 & 19" range-- and that could interfere with the upper rad hose if it's center of the tank.
 
There ain't a clutch available short enough to fit in there. Get a stock style radiator and maybe.
 
I bought a fan assembly with a flex drive on it that's supposedly short enough to work on a 70 n up water pump in an early A. I'll try to dig it out of my Barracuda parts stash and get you some pics in the next few days. It's a pretty compact deal.....supposed to be from some sorta Mercedes. Remind me with a PM if I forget.....I gotta drive a thousand miles or more the next 3 days! :BangHead: :realcrazy:
 
I just upgraded the lil barracuda to a 4-Bbl, and of course I want jus' a little more.
Do I have room for a Clutch-Fan in here?
I swapped a 2 inch Fan Spacer for a 1 inch Spacer when I put the Chinesium Radiator in a couple years ago.
I have a Fixed Steel Fan in there. Is that Robbing some of my available power?
Should I just Leave it be? or is the Clutch an Option for this?

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Yeah, Slanty guys have it the worst, but that rad looks pretty thick. Just search in the Slanty Forum for fan clutch, slantsixdan has posted the Mercedes unit that works wherever OE Mopar ones won't, I found dimensions online & saved them somewhere....
 
If you are willing to cut and bend the brackets, you can do something like this. Trying to get a Mopar Performance Viscous fan to work on a slant in my 65.

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With a stock radiator (upgraded to three row core) and an early cast iron water pump, no problem. Later aluminum pump, no. Aluminum radiator - ????

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I have a Fixed Steel Fan in there. Is that Robbing some of my available power?
Should I just Leave it be? or is the Clutch an Option for this?
Q1: is that robbing power?
Answer; Of course it is; it takes power to drive any fan. But,
On the street, with an automatic and street gears, you'll probably never feel the difference
Q2: should I leave it be?
Answer; If it ain't overheating, then leave it be
Q3: is the clutch an option?
Answer; Lemmee put it this way;
If I had an overheat issue, I would either get rid of, or move that rad; and make room for a 7-blade Thermostatically-clutched fan, running inside a shroud.
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But:
>if I just wanted lil more take-off power, I would stall it up.
>If I wanted to reduce my zero to sixty time, I would up the rear gear.
>If I wanted both, and I had the headroom, I would up the cylinder pressure first, then follow with the stall and gears, then the cam and induction.

The quickest way to "a lil more" on take-off, is to stall the engine up to where the power is. This is especially so when the car is handicapped with hiway gears.
 
Q1: is that robbing power?
Answer; Of course it is; it takes power to drive any fan. But,
On the street, with an automatic and street gears, you'll probably never feel the difference
Q2: should I leave it be?
Answer; If it ain't overheating, then leave it be
Q3: is the clutch an option?
Answer; Lemmee put it this way;
If I had an overheat issue, I would either get rid of, or move that rad; and make room for a 7-blade Thermostatically-clutched fan, running inside a shroud.
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But:
>if I just wanted lil more take-off power, I would stall it up.
>If I wanted to reduce my zero to sixty time, I would up the rear gear.
>If I wanted both, and I had the headroom, I would up the cylinder pressure first, then follow with the stall and gears, then the cam and induction.

The quickest way to "a lil more" on take-off, is to stall the engine up to where the power is. This is especially so when the car is handicapped with hiway gears.
It's a 4-Speed car with the 3.09 Gearset, But it has a 2.94 Open rear and it takes a little while to get it to the "Happy Place"
I just swapped the BBD for a 500cfm Carter and I'm Much, Much Happier.
I just thought it might spin-up a lil faster with a Clutch Fan in there...
It's a 2bbl Engine with a RacerBrown Commando Cam... makes about 150psi of Cranking Pressure.

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Is that a factory 273?
rated 9/1?
but now with .039 headgaskets? which would then make it an 8.4 Scr engine. So now,
with the factory cam, at 8.4Scr, and say 400ft elevation, that should make about 147psi with the factory 273 cam, that had an Ica of around 48*, which you-know, was pretty modest.
So Now;
with the unknow-spec Commando cam, and the 8.4 Scr, and say an Ica of just 60*, The Wallace predicts a pressure of just 134psi .................. but you measured ~150 .............
So then, I would do a new compression test with a different tester, with the valves correctly lashed; and if it comes out the same 150psi, then I would check the cam-timing............. cuz at 150 psi, it shouldn't be that lazy in a Lightweight-A, unless the ignition timing curve is real lazy, or, unless, are you perhaps expecting too much?.

IDK anything about a RacerBrown Commando cam, but if the ICA is anywhere near 60*, then your pressure is more like 135psi, which is way less than any solid-lifter 273-2bbl ever was, and couple that with a 2.94 rear gear, and that means that on the 1-2 shift, the Rs are gonna fall into the basement (62%), and then the poor 273 might have a heckuva time trynta climb up outta that hole.
The thing about this pressure is, that if it less than the 2bbl stock-cammed engine was, then it is gonna feel like a smaller engine until the cam starts to wake up ..........exactly as you say, taking time to come to it's happy place.
If this is right, then, in order of cost, there are only four things that you can do, to alleviate this time-lag, on this particular engine;

1) Check the timing curve, looking for headroom to increase it.
2) shed a few hundred pounds off the chassis.
3) install more rear gear; I mean 2.94s are fine with a 3.09 starter, but as soon as it hits 2nd gear, it's practically over.
4) increase the cylinder pressure, looking for about 160/165 with tight Q, closed-chamber, iron heads.

BTW
The Wallace predicts a V/P index of 88 with the Ica of 60 degrees as noted above at 134psi. This is about the same V/P number that a stock 225 slanty makes (~87). So then, that's what such a 273 will feel like.
Increasing the pressure to 150psi, the V/P climbs to 99, which is plus 12.5%. By 165psi, the V/P has risen to 109, another plus10%, but nearly plus24% over the starting 88V/P
For comparison, the stock 7.8Scr 318 makes a V/P of 111@133 psi, thus being just ~2% stronger out of the gate.
Read about V/P here
V/P Index Calculation
 
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It's a 4-Speed car with the 3.09 Gearset, But it has a 2.94 Open rear and it takes a little while to get it to the "Happy Place"
I just swapped the BBD for a 500cfm Carter and I'm Much, Much Happier.
I just thought it might spin-up a lil faster with a Clutch Fan in there...
It's a 2bbl Engine with a RacerBrown Commando Cam... makes about 150psi of Cranking Pressure.

two words: aluminum flywheel

*maniacal laughter*
 
Wow! Thanks AJ! I've not considered all of these numbers before. Yes, Stock, but Refreshed 2bbl Engine.
I grabbed a Pic of my Cam Card and I had a Single Point Distrib built and curved for a Stock 273 by Halifax Hops.

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It has a Windage Tray, 340 valve springs, a Melling Pump and about .405 lift with stock flat pistons... that's about it.
 
There you go. The combination of the late-closing intake valve and the accompanying loss of cylinder pressure, is your lazy start.

If you look at the opening rate of that cam, going from [email protected], to .200@ .050, you can see that it is about 1* per .001 lift.
Therefore from .018, back to a cold lash of .010 is another 10*of duration. But, the rate of lash take-up, could be slower, so lets arbitrarily make it 22*. Thus your 200*@.050 cam becomes;
[email protected] + 30 + 22= 252* after lashing, which we're gonna call the advertised for purposes of determining the Ica. Yes, I'm guessing.
And so, the Ica is predicted to be...... 52 degrees, quite a bit better than the 60* I had earlier estimated. With this new information, the Wallace predicts;
at 8.4Scr/800ft elevation;, 140psi and a V/P of 100
Thus, to get to 165psi would require the Scr to be increased to 9.5, which is predicted to raise the V/P to 117, which is a very significant increase of ~17%.
Disclaimer;
All my numbers are guesses. To be accurate, the Wallace needs your exact Ica , along with the exact and accurate cranking cylinder pressure.

Here's the deal; Your V/P is down some 17%, as I estimate. You can get that same 17% back, by increasing your rear gear by 17%, which would be 3.44s; rounds up or down.
This is what is so neat about using V/P numbers.

Now remember, once the Rpm gets to where the cam is waking up, the V/P numbers are no longer useful. This Is why I keep preaching V/P to guys with manual transmissions. When your engine is stuck well below the torque peak, as it often is, lack of V/P is gonna make you cry, while a preponderance is gonna make you smirk ear-to-ear.
Imagine a 360 with a V/P of 175, lol. (mine at one time). Lessee; 175/100= plus 75% that's like supercharging your 273..
Here's a tip, gleaned from my manual-trans testing;
get your second gear power delivery dialed in, and let the rest be what it will be. The math shows that you need at least 3.44s. Rounded to 3.55s, and with 25" tires that will put you at;
>5000 rpm=34mph, in First gear.
On the 1-2 shift, the Rs will fall to 62%=3100. But peak torque may not come around until 3500, or more.
That leaves you with a Second gear hole from 3100 to 3500, going from 34>38mph, with 3.55s. With 2.94s this gap is from 41>46mph, does that sound about right?

I have the same Commando trans, and the same 3.55s, and the same problem, and the way I overcame it was to spring the valves enough to rev to 7200, then buzz First gear up to 38mph, before shifting, which is 5600 in your case. Now it will drop into Second at 62% of 5600= about 3500.
There is only one other way to get around this, which is to get a transmission with a tighter 1-2 split, and then again, retuning second gear.

I know it sounds cliche, but "trust me"; I have tried every 23spline A833 ratio that Mopar ever commonly made, and every rear end ratio from 2.76 to 4.30 except 3.73s, and some beyond that as well; and I am confident in what I preach.
When it comes to splits, the Commando trans has the Second furthest apart 1-2 split, of 62%. It makes for a great holeshot with hi-way gears. But when first gear runs out, you better have a back-up plan. My Back-up is the GVod which handily splits that 62% into two halves of 78% and 79.67%. BadaBoom!

For you, either of the standard A833 transmissions would have the best 1-2 splits of around 72%, thus on the 1-2 shift the Rs would drop from 5000 to 3600, a powerband requirement of just 1400, versus the Commando 1-2 split of 1900rpm. The down side is that the T/A trans will need 1.77 x 3.91= 6.92, to closely match the Commando's
1.92 x 3.55= 6.82, to provide the same Second gear performance ................. and so, 3.91s just about kill any long-distance cruising. But yaknow, 3.55s were no hell either. To overcome this, about your only choice is an overdrive gear. For example, the .78 GVod would turn 3.91s to 3.04s
I'm not saying that you should rush out and get a different trans, a different rear gear, and a GVod. I'm using those items to preach gear ratios, to an engine with a sub-3500 torque problem.
Cheaper by far is to just increase the Dcr up closer to 8.0 to get at least some of that missing 17% V/P back.
Or even a different cam with an earlier closing intake valve. >Or the easiest of all, get the air intake out from under the hood. I can't tell you how much power my engine gained, when I cut the hole in my hood, and isolated the carb from the underhood hot air; but I can tell you that the 750Dp went from 68/76 jets to 72/80s .......... and she promptly ripped off a 93 mph in the Eighth, on a really crappy track.

One more thing worth mentioning;
As the cylinder pressure goes up, so will the Idle and Part Throttle vacuum. And so three things will come into being;
1) throttle response gets better,
2) the engine will need less Power-Timing
3) if you retune it, she will return you better fuel-economy.
4) it may be that, you can reduce the size of your carb to better the performance as a streeter, yet not compromise the power much if at all, in at least the first two gears.

Of all my testing, to have fun, two things emerged, ;
1) I needed a maximum load of not more than ~10 pounds per cubic inch. Thus my 3650 pound Barracuda(me in it), needed 367 cubes. At this load, the horsepower really didn't matter much. and
2) My favorite Second gear turned out to be in the range of 6.2>6.8, with 27" tires. Thus it now runs a 1.92 Second gear, with, usually, 3.55s.

So
Firstly; to fit the profile, your 273 at 2730 pounds of car weight, would need run 10pounds for per cube , with you in it. If yur not at 10/1 or less ....... you may never be happy. ...... but you might be, ...... with the right rear gears......
Second; to get into the 6.2>6.8 zone, yur combo is gonna needs 3.38 gears. Rounds up for a heavier car, to 3.55s.
Thirdly; In all my testing, whenever I swapped the cam out, I always reconfigured the Cylinder pressure to run about the same, and at the upper limit for 87E10. Which with Tight-Q Alloy-heads, turned out to be over 195psi. But I did not at first know that, I just kindof stumbled into it, while targeting 185..
My 367 , at 195 psi, and 3457 pounds, was outrageously overkill. I very soon reconfigured it, again, to run around 180psi.
Lest you think I must be rich, that is just not so. When I screwed that engine together, I planned ahead, by setting up the Targets so that these changes only required a minimum of machining, and all the gaskets were re-useable. Thus my only real costs were time. I took that engine out and down a minimum of Five times in five winters. It mightabin six.
But in all honesty, the 360, in it's current configuration, is just way bigger than it needs to be for my application. The torque at 195 psi is ridiculously high. The power to weight ratio of ~8.4/1 is similarly outrageous. I only built it thus, because it was so daymn cheap to screw together so effectively.
l mean, it fell together at first build at 10.7 Scr ! with off-the-shelf parts. I couldn't say no.

I know I'm rambling on now, but you gotta admit, you kindof egged me on, lol.
I sure hope you can find something useful in this post.
 
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