SBM Roller Lifter Choice

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furrystump said:
I remember as a kid them epoxying in screens over the oil return/cam window/holes in the valley to catch valve train pieces.
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My son and I checked spring pressure inside my car Trailer and wanted to reshim a few. While doing so a keeper slipped and my son and I both heard a ting. We looked at each other and at the same time said was that the windage tray. Yep, yep it was. When I coasted it down my hill to remove it I also removed the windage tray so we wouldn’t hear that sound again. Ohhhh and it ran exactly the same without the windage tray.
 
Duane said:
I looked at those Bam lifters, they have the link bars inside as well.
They look like nice lifters too, but yes all the good stuff is big money.
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I have the Bam dlc coated steel axle bushing lifters in a hemi. Hopefully they hold up.
 
Duane said:
I would say the jury is still out on the bushed as far as durability.
I was mainly after the bushed and the no axle clips to fall out and into the motor in a failure, no needle bearings either to get in the motor. Many people using the needle bearing without issue because of the oil pressure fed axle design.
The theory is with a bushed you have more surface area at high spring rates. Think connecting rods with bushed pins.
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Well I thought I may have had a handle on this, but as normal with most of what I get involved in the water is still muddy.
 
Duane said:
What do you mean?
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Solid roller with either bushings or bearings for the street? Which one?
Remove it from the car disassemble the complete engine and have the lifter bores bushed and redesign the oiling to the top end of the engine.
Or jerk the whole roller mess out and **** can $1200 in roller parts and install a solid flat tappet cam like I probably should have done in the first place.
Lesson learned , the hard way.
 
512Stroker said:
Solid roller with either bushings or bearings for the street? Which one?
Remove it from the car disassemble the complete engine and have the lifter bores bushed and redesign the oiling to the top end of the engine.
Or jerk the whole roller mess out and **** can $1200 in roller parts and install a solid flat tappet cam like I probably should have done in the first place.
Lesson learned , the hard way.
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What is the issue you were having with the hydraulic.
 
Phreakish said:
Bushings also tend to be made from softer materials (needed for conformance under load) which have better fatigue resistance but can't handle as much total load (lower yield strength). The failure mode tends to be over a longer time-span though, and can be detected by change in lash.

Bearings are hardened steel which can take higher total loading, but will often fatigue fail with micro cracking and spalling happening in quick succession, leading to catastrophic failure with seemingly no warning and lots more small parts coming free during the rapid disassembly.

Everything is a trade-off..
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In my above post I noted that Mike Jones is making a lifter with a steel bushing...again IIRC. I'm sure he is using a DLC bushing or something. They are worth a look but I knew in the mid 1980's if someone wanted to, they could make a roller lifter with a bushing. A bushing is much better carrying a load than a needle unless the needles are HUGE.
 
Duane said:
What is the issue you were having with the hydraulic.
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Ever since they were installed in my 340 build they have had excessive clatter on startup, hot or cold. I mean bad clatter, sounds like trying to kill itself. Oil pressure is normal hot and cold. These hyd rollers are bleeding off very quickly. Lifter bores were checked by the machine shop and all were within factory specs.
Edit - I have tried every preload setting that was recommended by Comp Cam with no change.
 
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I don't know crap about lifters but do understand bearing systems and their uses. If I had to choose, I would go with a bushing over a needle bearing in most cases except where the axle will see high rpm. As stated a plain bearing can carry more load and withstand impacts better, especially if you are able to reliably supply oil to support the fluid film.
 
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What’s pathetic about this is back 30 years ago when I was running 9.80’s with .750 lift roller cams in my big block Duster I used to buy used roller lifters and race 2-3 times a week and only ever had one lifter failure. We ran 1/2 the spring pressure that we run today and didn’t beat the crap out of our stuff. Hmmmmm.
 
pittsburghracer said:
What’s pathetic about this is back 30 years ago when I was running 9.80’s with .750 lift roller cams in my big block Duster I used to buy used roller lifters and race 2-3 times a week and only ever had one lifter failure. We ran 1/2 the spring pressure that we run today and didn’t beat the crap out of our stuff. Hmmmmm.
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I’ve ran the same set of Comp 829 roller lifters for 10 years and just retired them. They all feel great. 4000lb Street/strip car running 9.50’s.
 
yellow rose said:
In my above post I noted that Mike Jones is making a lifter with a steel bushing...again IIRC. I'm sure he is using a DLC bushing or something. They are worth a look but I knew in the mid 1980's if someone wanted to, they could make a roller lifter with a bushing. A bushing is much better carrying a load than a needle unless the needles are HUGE.
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Good bushings can be made from steel, but not often made from stupidly hard tool steels. Though there are some tool and die steels that could do it ($$$$) but tougher materials make better bushings, as they can distort and flex without cracking. That distortion is what allows them to temporarily conform and spread the load over more area.

Same idea behind DLC. The diamond like coating gives massive abrasion resistance and high temperature durability, but is super thin (1-2 microns) to keep strain low enough to avoid fatigue or cracks. But it can be scratched through macro abrasion (dirt/grit), so keeping the oil clean is a must.

Bearings should do better with lowering rolling resistance, but must be larger than a comparable bearing to deal with the same load. So without increasing the lifter bore diameter, a bushed axle will always take more load before failure than a needle bearing. But at the cost of increased drag (which is moot when a bearing disintegrates).
 
pittsburghracer said:
What’s pathetic about this is back 30 years ago when I was running 9.80’s with .750 lift roller cams in my big block Duster I used to buy used roller lifters and race 2-3 times a week and only ever had one lifter failure. We ran 1/2 the spring pressure that we run today and didn’t beat the crap out of our stuff. Hmmmmm.
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If you were running 1980's lobes then yes, you can get by with that stuff.

Using today's lobes, you asking for trouble.
 
Hemirunner said:
I don’t personally know Mike Jones, but from what I hear, he’s invented everything he’s ever been involved with if you get my meaning.
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True. His dad was the genius. The dude was a savvy cat who could tune and develop things like you wouldn't believe.

I don't know how much Mike did in actually developing the stuff. But I do know he had some development time on them. What all that was, IDK. But he was somehow involved with the project. He may have just supplied the cams or something. You never know!!
 
69valiant21 said:
What are the big differences in 30 years?
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Go look up a lobe from say, 1985. Look at the seat timing, the at .050 timing and the at .200 timing.

Then do the same for 1995, 2005 and 2015.

It's an eye opener.

You can do the same for SFT lobes. I run a lobe on a SFT today that would have been unheard of 30 years ago.
 
yellow rose said:
If you were running 1980's lobes then yes, you can get by with that stuff.

Using today's lobes, you asking for trouble.
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Why do you think I still have those cams laying on my shelf. Lol. I promised myself that if I ever had issues one would go back in. I can’t imagine how fast I could go with them now with the heads that are available instead of the junk ported stock ones I ran.
 
pittsburghracer said:
Why do you think I still have those cams laying on my shelf. Lol. I promised myself that if I ever had issues one would go back in. I can’t imagine how fast I could go with them now with the heads that are available instead of the junk ported stock ones I ran.
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LOL. One of the very best bracket racers I ever knew said the same thing. He refused to use a newer lobe. Ever. He always waited 5 years or so to let the springs, pushrods, rockers and such had caught up.

He almost never had any valve train issues because of that policy.

The biggest bone headed move was buying a Moroso one piece aluminum damper. That thing took out two cranks and blocks before I could get him to change it.

He actually watched me mag both cranks because I he thought I was fibbing to him because I hated that damper so much.

You could see the main webs pulled down and cracked with your eyes. It's funny, but he dropped the first engine off in the morning and I called him about 2 hours later and asked him to order a new block. He thought I was fibbing and said, no way is that engine pulled down, cleaned and magged that fast.

I said you don't need to mag it. I can see the fractures with my eyes. An hour later he came by the shop to verify.

One of those things you never forget.
 
pittsburghracer said:
Why do you think I still have those cams laying on my shelf. Lol. I promised myself that if I ever had issues one would go back in. I can’t imagine how fast I could go with them now with the heads that are available instead of the junk ported stock ones I ran.
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Nothing wrong with that trusty RB solid you ran for sure.
 
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