SBP or BBP?

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65LoveAffair

65LoveAffair

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I put this topic here and not the "Wheel and Tire" forum because I'm just looking for general information, not anything specific. I'm just wanting to know which is preferable, SBP or BBP? My Fish still has the stock wheels, so I'm assuming it is a SBP car. It is just a base model slant six 65 Fish, no real bells or whistles. Although I'm assuming there IS a horn. Don't know, haven't tried that one yet. But here's my questions: are there any benefits to keeping it SBP, or would I be better off if I switched it over to the BBP? Thanks in advance.
 
The advantage of keeping it small bolt pattern is cost......nothing else unless it's going to be showed in a stock class.
 
If your gonna drive the car, I would go bbp. The parts are easier to find and aftermarket wheel are readily available if desired.
 
How difficult is it to swap? I'm assuming I would nead a donor rear axle, as well as front upper and lower control arms and the front wheel hubs. Is there anything else involved?
 
I would say cost is going to be the biggest factor as well. You have to have a clear plan of what you are going to do with the car. Swapping to BBP entails changing the rear axle to either an 8 1/4" or 8 3/4" with BBP axles and corresponding shock plates... about $200.00 for the 8 1/4" and the skys the limit on the 8 3/4". Next would be to find a donor car for the BBP front brakes, looking for a 1973 or later car. Assuming you can find decent rebuildable parts from the donor, you would be looking at $200.00 for core parts plus the $$$ to rebuild or buy replacement calipers and such, probably a $400.00 endeavor when you're done. Now you need to actually do the swaps if you're mechanically inclined or pay to have it done.

So, is it worth it to you to have BBP for the $$ and time and labor involved just to have a larger selection of wheels?? Are you OK with running 14" tires?? If so, just keep it SBP. Again, it all boils down to your vision of the car, and your final product when it's done!!

For the record, I have SBP on all my early cars and I have no problem with keeping them that way!!! Geof
 
Do you want to be able to stop and keep it straight when hitting the brakes?
 
65LoveAffair said:
How difficult is it to swap? I'm assuming I would nead a donor rear axle, as well as front upper and lower control arms and the front wheel hubs. Is there anything else involved?
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well yes u will need a rear end i got from tie rods to barring all the way around for my barracuda of the swap 98% moog so i have bout 1500 in all the parts i went toa junk yard and got the spendles and a arms i got the rear end for 100 bucks as for how hard its going to be i will let u know when i start fyi that price i gave was some tune up parts to
 
i bought my reg. axles to the machine shop and they simply welded up the original sbp and punched new holes in the axles for the BBP. Im keeping my tiny rear end that the car came with from the factory..... now all i need is a disc brake donor....
 
Yup, SBP works for me as well.........even my drag car still has them!
 
dodge71demon said:
Do you want to be able to stop and keep it straight when hitting the brakes?
Click to expand...

Don't quite know what you are getting at. My Duster was a SBP with a high horsepower motor and I never had any problems stopping the car nor did it ever veer off to the side when stopping, even in a fast stop from a fast speed.
 
BBP unless it's a resto.
BBP changeover will cost a few bucks but in the long run it's the way to go.
It's stronger and the parts availability is better if not cheaper, let alone the wheel availability and selection.
My 2 cents.
Tom.
 
It's nice to have a choice isn't it? But as someone else has said - it all depends on what you are trying to do with it. I get the impression sometimes that some people try to outengineer Mopar. If you want to upgrade everything then go for it (an pay for it).
If you just want a comfortable cruiser why wouldn't you stick to the SBP?
It's your choice
My 2 cents worth!:p
 
Too many limitations with small bolt for me. First thing I do is trash that small bolt junk for all large bolt stuff. I go straight to disc brakes and a big bolt 8 3/4 no matter what motor the car has in it. .
 
I,m with Joe,any LBP upgrade opens a wide variety of brakes,rim,tire selection.To the OP,SBP did come with disc brakes on some cars,so stop fine.LOL
 
This is a decision I am in the middle of as well. Car is a 1965 Barracuda and has 10 inch drums, but I would rather have discs... and I want to go to 15 inch wheels.

Wheel choices for the SBP seem to be limited. I am not a big fan of the SS Cragar, but they are available as new parts. Ansen slots are available, but I can only find 15x7's right now.

SBP brakes can be had from one end of the price range (Scarebird) to the other. I really don't want to spend 1500+ on a brake conversion If I can avoid it. The OE spindle assemblies are not common, and the ones I have found so far were just cores. By the time you replace the siezed calipers, worn out rotors, bearings & seals it gets expensive.

LBP wheels are much easier to find, since so many vehicles have used the 5 on 4.5 pattern.

That of course means doing something with the rear end. With a mild V8, the 7 inch unit will be just fine for me. So it is either new axles, or wheel adaptors in the back. I had not heard of welding up an axle for re-drilling until this thread - anybody have some feedback on that one?

Finally there is the front end & LBP discs. The expensive new stuff is of course out there. I see mention on here of a taller spindle from later cars, and various "digs" about bumpsteer. I searched "disc brake conversion" and read more than 400 posts. I still do not have a clear picture of what vehicles are good donors for that swap - "cordoba" came up a few times, but I have not seen one of those for a decade. The local yards around here have almost no RWD Dodge/Chrysler/Plymouth stuff.

I am watching threads like this one for more information.

Thanks everyone here on FABO. If I seem a little frustrated, well I am . The wife drove the car last week, and told me it would be a fun car if I could fix the brakes. She has no experience with manual drum brakes, and the increasing pedal effort scared the heck out of her.

B.
 
If you had Kelsey Hayes discs and an 8 3/4 with the SBP, I see no reason to switch. 10 inch drums are also OK. You probably have 9 inch drums, so I would definately switch them ASAP. I'd also factor in a front sway bar while you are at it. I have cars with both. Both disc systems work very well. To me, it depends on what you can get hold of and how much it costs. I only run factory systems, sway bars and all. I'm not up on what sway bars are available for our early "A"s with the BBP.
 
That of course means doing something with the rear end. With a mild V8, the 7 inch unit will be just fine for me. So it is either new axles, or wheel adaptors in the back. I had not heard of welding up an axle for re-drilling until this thread - anybody have some feedback on that one?
Click to expand...

you can probably find a big bolt 7 1/4 cheap if you didn't want to upgrade to a 8 1/4 or 8 3/4. people usually just trash them. any 73-up abody big bolt 7 1/4 will bolt into your car..


Finally there is the front end & LBP discs. The expensive new stuff is of course out there. I see mention on here of a taller spindle from later cars, and various "digs" about bumpsteer. I searched "disc brake conversion" and read more than 400 posts. I still do not have a clear picture of what vehicles are good donors for that swap - "cordoba" came up a few times, but I have not seen one of those for a decade. The local yards around here have almost no RWD Dodge/Chrysler/Plymouth stuff.
Click to expand...

all the info you need on that.
http://www.bigblockdart.com/techpages/spindles.shtml
 
bohica2xo said:
This is a decision I am in the middle of as well. Car is a 1965 Barracuda and has 10 inch drums, but I would rather have discs... and I want to go to 15 inch wheels.

Wheel choices for the SBP seem to be limited. I am not a big fan of the SS Cragar, but they are available as new parts. Ansen slots are available, but I can only find 15x7's right now.

SBP brakes can be had from one end of the price range (Scarebird) to the other. I really don't want to spend 1500+ on a brake conversion If I can avoid it. The OE spindle assemblies are not common, and the ones I have found so far were just cores. By the time you replace the siezed calipers, worn out rotors, bearings & seals it gets expensive.

LBP wheels are much easier to find, since so many vehicles have used the 5 on 4.5 pattern.

That of course means doing something with the rear end. With a mild V8, the 7 inch unit will be just fine for me. So it is either new axles, or wheel adaptors in the back. I had not heard of welding up an axle for re-drilling until this thread - anybody have some feedback on that one?

Finally there is the front end & LBP discs. The expensive new stuff is of course out there. I see mention on here of a taller spindle from later cars, and various "digs" about bumpsteer. I searched "disc brake conversion" and read more than 400 posts. I still do not have a clear picture of what vehicles are good donors for that swap - "cordoba" came up a few times, but I have not seen one of those for a decade. The local yards around here have almost no RWD Dodge/Chrysler/Plymouth stuff.

I am watching threads like this one for more information.

Thanks everyone here on FABO. If I seem a little frustrated, well I am . The wife drove the car last week, and told me it would be a fun car if I could fix the brakes. She has no experience with manual drum brakes, and the increasing pedal effort scared the heck out of her.

B.
Click to expand...

You don't have to weld the axle flanges, you can just drill the 4.50 pattern offset from the 4.00 pattern. I did not like having to drill the small 10 x 1 3/4 drums when I wanted to replace them. I also don't like lug nuts centering the wheel instead of the hub. As for wheels, the 15 x 7.00 rallyes fit. I had a set of custom 15 x 6.00 MiniLites made for the 66 Formula S. Should get them on in a couple of weeks. You could probably add a power booster to the 65 and turn the drums with good shoes... Just thinking out loud.

abodyjoe is right on about the BBP 7 1/4.
 
abodyjoe said:
you can probably find a big bolt 7 1/4 cheap if you didn't want to upgrade to a 8 1/4 or 8 3/4. people usually just trash them. any 73-up abody big bolt 7 1/4 will bolt into your car..
Click to expand...

Good to know. When did they stop the 7.25? Could I just swap the axles & brakes? What cars had the right track width / spring perch width?

abodyjoe said:
all the info you need on that.
http://www.bigblockdart.com/techpages/spindles.shtml
Click to expand...

Thanks for that link. It does explain all of the swap parts. Of course the UCA's are unobtanium, so I will still need aftermarket parts. I bet I would have trouble finding a used cigarette lighter for a 35 year old A body around here - let alone a suspension part. Must be geographical. I am pretty sure I can find an M body here someplace to grab the other parts from. Have not seen a 79 vintage B body anyplace since the spike in steel prices a while ago.

B.
 
Good to know. When did they stop the 7.25? Could I just swap the axles & brakes? What cars had the right track width / spring perch width?
Click to expand...

not sure on the axle swap... but you can get the rear from any 73-up abody.. dart,duster,dart sport,valiant, and it will be a bolt in deal.
 
66fs said:
You don't have to weld the axle flanges, you can just drill the 4.50 pattern offset from the 4.00 pattern. I did not like having to drill the small 10 x 1 3/4 drums when I wanted to replace them. I also don't like lug nuts centering the wheel instead of the hub. As for wheels, the 15 x 7.00 rallyes fit. I had a set of custom 15 x 6.00 MiniLites made for the 66 Formula S. Should get them on in a couple of weeks. You could probably add a power booster to the 65 and turn the drums with good shoes... Just thinking out loud.

abodyjoe is right on about the BBP 7 1/4.
Click to expand...

The car does in fact have 10 inch drums in the front:

10inchoncar.jpg


I have already been through them. Turned the drums, and installed new wheel cylinders, adjusters and shoes. You have not been able to buy "good" shoes for decades. Velvetouch has not made shoes for a long time, and asbestos is long gone too. If you have an alternative to the over the counter Wagner Thermo-Quiet I have in there, I would love to hear about it.

I don't have a picture handy, but I recall a couple of huge holes in the axle flange that would preclude drilling another 5 holes with a 36 degree offset. Again if I missed something, let me know - I can drill those units in less time that it will take me to remove them.

15x6 minilites with custom drilling? Sounds nice, where & how much?

I looked at the hydroboost, no way that will fit - the master is an inch from a valve cover now. Power brakes would help cover the shortcomings of the drums. That little drum brake is just not the same as a modern vehicle disc brake. I had an '86 Ranger with manual 10 inch discs that stopped better - at 1.5 times the vehicle weight. With 50 mph stoplight to stoplight operation, the increasing pedal pressure is very obvious. They still stop, but the feel changes.

I have been doing drum brakes for a long time. I know these are as good as they will get with the materials in them right now. If you know of a better braking material I am all ears.

Thanks

B.
 
To bohica2xo, I must thank you. You are asking questions that I don't know enough about to even ask yet. These are things that I am going to be wanting to know down the road. I appreciate it.
 
66fs said:
You don't have to weld the axle flanges, you can just drill the 4.50 pattern offset from the 4.00 pattern. I did not like having to drill the small 10 x 1 3/4 drums when I wanted to replace them. I also don't like lug nuts centering the wheel instead of the hub. As for wheels, the 15 x 7.00 rallyes fit. I had a set of custom 15 x 6.00 MiniLites made for the 66 Formula S. Should get them on in a couple of weeks. You could probably add a power booster to the 65 and turn the drums with good shoes... Just thinking out loud.

abodyjoe is right on about the BBP 7 1/4.
Click to expand...
That's why I don't recommend redrilling the axles.....centering can be a problem and the studs get too close to an edge for me to be comfortable about strength. As for swapping the later 7 1/4 in place of the earlier one.....a waste of time and money in my opinion (unless you get it free and have all the time in the world). To me it's like trading one hand grenade for another because it's easier to clip on your belt. Save your money and get a better rear end.
 
As for swapping the later 7 1/4 in place of the earlier one.....a waste of time and money in my opinion (unless you get it free and have all the time in the world). To me it's like trading one hand grenade for another because it's easier to clip on your belt. Save your money and get a better rear end.
Click to expand...


thats always been my thoughts. if i'm pulling the rear its getting a 8 3/4...

when i bought the housing for jamies 273 dart a buddy of mine kept telling me that her car doesn't need a 8 3/4. i wanted to smack the bastard with the housing. i told him it may not need it but thats what i want to put in the damn thing. no use going through all the trouble of a rear swap if i'm not going 8 3/4. figure i can put anything motor wise that she will ever need in the car and not worry about the rear. and resale should be a little better with a big bolt 8 3/4 with 11" drum brakes.. :)
 
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