Slant six turbo 500 hp cost analysis

[Bill Dedman]

This will attempt to determine the actual cost of building a (nominal) 500 hp slant six with a blow-thru carbureted, turbocharged 225 engine that will feature forged (forged aluminum) pistons and aftermarket, forged 198 rods. It will be limited to 25 pounds of boost.

Let the games begin! :happy1:

All contributions/ideas will be appreciated!!!

 

[Bill Dedman]

Let the games begin! :happy1:

I am going to simplify this exercise by assuming that the engine in question will be free, since this is simply a comparison to the the other slant six (300 hp) and would cost the same. I was GIVEN my motor, so I know it happens.

I am also going to assume that it is an early slant motor with solid lifters and a forged steel crankshaft.

Since there is basically, only one head available for these motors, the comparison will be easy; the more powerfiul motor will have a full-on, professionally-ported head with larger valves installed (1.74" X 1.5",) while the 300 hp version will get the bigger valves, but no actual porting. beyond a little cleaning up in the valve pocket area.

Let's start with the reciprocating assembly:

Wiseco makes a nice piston (.045"-overbore) for this application. $423.28 This includes a narrow, low-drag ringset which must be filed to your specs before installation. They only fit 198-spec (7.005"-length) rods.
The recommended 198 Rods for this piston are $577.71. It is a forged steel H-beam design and are 7.005"-long.

Bearings: Main and rod kit: $46.99....Summit

Gaskets except for the brass head gasket for the 500 hp motor: $56.00 Summit

Copper Head Gasket for 500 hp motor: $150.00??? Please advise... not sure...

Distributor: Stock slant six electronic...$124.00 for a reman. "Cardone"; Mopar Performance apparently has discontinued it.

That's all for now; beddy-bye time....

More later.

 

[CichliDart]

Hi Bill,

What size and model carb are you using on your build?

Thanks!

Mike

I am going to simplify this exercise by assuming that the engine in question will be free, since this is simply a comparison to the the other slant six (300 hp) and would cost the same. I was GIVEN my motor, so I know it happens. I am also going to assume that it is an early slant motor with solid lifters and a forged steel crankshaft. Since there is basically, only one head available for these motors, the comparison will be easy; the more powerfiul motor will have a full-on, professionally-ported head with larger valves installed (1.74" X 1.5",) while the 300 hp version will get the bigger valves, but no actual porting. beyond a little cleaning up in the valve pocket area. Let's start with the reciprocating assembly: Wiseco makes a nice piston (.045"-overbore) for this application. $423.28 This includes a narrow, low-drag ringset which must be filed to your specs before installation. They only fit 198-spec (7.005"-length) rods. The recommended 198 Rods for this piston are $577.71. It is a forged steel H-beam design and are 7.005"-long. Bearings: Main and rod kit: $46.99....Summit Gaskets except for the brass head gasket for the 500 hp motor: $56.00 Summit Copper Head Gasket for 500 hp motor: $150.00??? Please advise... not sure... Distributor: Stock slant six electronic...$124.00 for a reman. "Cardone"; Mopar Performance apparently has discontinued it. That's all for now; beddy-bye time.... More later.

 

[Bill Dedman]

Hi Bill,

What size and model carb are you using on your build?

Thanks!

Mike

It's a 4150 Holley, 650 double-pumper with Hangar 18 mods, including a boost-referenced power valve... Originally had a 750 Holley, but decided to try this one... was having mixture issues with the 750.

We'll see pretty soon, if it works...

Thanks for the interest!:glasses7:

 

[Bill Dedman]

I am going to simplify this exercise by assuming that the engine in question will be free, since this is simply a comparison to the the other slant six (300 hp) and would cost the same. I was GIVEN my motor, so I know it happens.

I am also going to assume that it is an early slant motor with solid lifters and a forged steel crankshaft.

Since there is basically, only one head available for these motors, the comparison will be easy; the more powerful motor will have a full-on, professionally-ported head with larger valves installed (1.74" X 1.5",) while the 300 hp version will get the bigger valves, but no actual porting. beyond a little cleaning up in the valve pocket area.

Let's start with the reciprocating assembly:

Wiseco makes a nice piston (.045"-overbore) for this application. $423.28 This includes a narrow, low-drag ringset which must be filed to your specs before installation. They only fit 198-spec (7.005"-length) rods.
The recommended 198 Rods for this piston are $577.71. It is a forged steel H-beam design and are 7.005"-long.

Bearings: Main and rod kit: $46.99....Summit

Gaskets except for the brass head gasket for the 500 hp motor: $56.00 Summit

Copper Head Gasket for 500 hp motor: $150.00??? Please advise... not sure...

Distributor: Stock slant six electronic...$124.00 for a reman. "Cardone"; Mopar Performance apparently has discontinued it.

That's all for now; beddy-bye time....

More later.

This is an attempt to organize the information learned so far...

Slant six cost analysis for a 500 hp tune:

I will attempt to nail down the cost of building a 500 hp, 25+ pound-boost, early slant six that’s as much like the engines of Ryan Peterson’s and Tom Wolfe’s, both FABO members, and which both make a little over 500 hp, to a cost that is as close as I can figure it.

It will take lots of time and input from a variety of sources to put this estimate together, but it should be accurate to within a few dollars.

Here is the first of an ongoing-number of entries:

The engine for both the 500 and 300-horsepower project estimates will be free. That is a given, as people give these motors away all the time. I am doing it this way to make an easy comparison with the second project; a similar, cost-analysis for a 300 horsepower turbo motor. Cheaper, by far, with lots of cost-saving by using the original reciprocating assembly and other original. Stock parts. The 300-horsepower figure may be optimistic, but I don’t think it will be short of that by more than 25-30 horsepower. Could be wrong…
Twelve pounds of boost will be the limit with this motor, in the interest of maximizing parts’ life-expectancy.

The 500 HP motor:

The reciprocating assembly and its environs…

Pistons: Wiseco .045” overbore flat top. .167” down 424.00 set
(produces a 9:1 CR with an un-milled deck and head) and, these following rods:
come with low-drag, modern design, rings

Rods K-1, 7.005”-long, (198) forged steel, H-beam, $577.00 set

Main and rod bearings $49.00


Hard parts:

Head gasket: copper, $150.00 (???) please advise…

Or
Fel Pro $17.00

Distributor; reman. Cardone Mopar Performance electronic $ 124.00

Intake manifold, 4bbl, used Offy or Clifford, ebay… $200. Or…

Aussiespeed, 4bbl, about $500.00 short runner

Carb, 4150 Holley 650cfm double-pumper, with all blow-thru Hangar 18mods including a boost-referenced power valve: $800.00-$1,200.00

Snowperformance water/alky chemical intercooler $400-up, but cheaper ones are available, I am sure.

Exhaust header: Build your own or hire it done; none are currently available from the commercial sector. My partner (at the time) built one and by the time we had it professionally welded, ceramic-coated and paid all shipping costs, it was $1,000.00, but you can probably build one for less than $300.00, if you can weld. I can’t…

Intercooler: $300.00

Wastegate: $200.00-up…

Cam and kit: $400.... no pushrods or rockers needed and only shimmed 340 springs needed...

MSD system 6-AL $259.00

Spar Plug wires Taylor NOT solid core (won't work with MSD systems, they say.) $90.00

MSD coil $50.00

Deep pan $40.00

Oil pump $100.00

Turbo 66 mm $450.00-up

electic fan and water pump $190.00

Turbo cold side piping + downpipe for exhaust $300.00

A/F ratio meter F.A.S.T. $400.00

Machine work (to include align-boring, block decking, head milling, cal bearing installation, etc., etc...) $1,000.00

Cylinder head porting, including bigger valves $1,500.00

Spark plugs $16.00

Total so far: 9,520.00

Not cheap...







MORE LATER, as more info becomes available and I have more time.

Thanks for listening!:happy1:

 

[RustyPlymouth]

now im not anywhere near 500hp yet but i built my setup to hold it in the future so i dont have to buy stuff twice. i also found some things much cheaper then you have listed.
distributor can be had in a junkyard for around $20, check it for play, if its good then you are good to go. you could probably get a lean burn distributor for the cost of shipping if you ask around.
650dp holley, $50 + $45 for a rebuild kit and $12 for the nytrophyle (sp) floats. the hangar mods are free they just take a little time.
ebay 31x11x3.5 bar & plate front mount intercooler $98 should be good 500+hp.
the exhaust header can be made from old headers. ive picked up a couple sets so far just to make one of these and im $20 into it so far add the ebay flanges and the turbo flange and it comes to just about $60
the offy 4bbl intake can be had for $100 if you shop around and are not in a hurry but go for $150 regularly.

 

[Bill Dedman]

now im not anywhere near 500hp yet but i built my setup to hold it in the future so i dont have to buy stuff twice. i also found some things much cheaper then you have listed.
distributor can be had in a junkyard for around $20, check it for play, if its good then you are good to go. you could probably get a lean burn distributor for the cost of shipping if you ask around.
650dp holley, $50 + $45 for a rebuild kit and $12 for the nytrophyle (sp) floats. the hangar mods are free they just take a little time.
ebay 31x11x3.5 bar & plate front mount intercooler $98 should be good 500+hp.
the exhaust header can be made from old headers. ive picked up a couple sets so far just to make one of these and im $20 into it so far add the ebay flanges and the turbo flange and it comes to just about $60
the offy 4bbl intake can be had for $100 if you shop around and are not in a hurry but go for $150 regularly.

Junior.

I deliberately set the prices on the high side for two reasons; 1. not everybody has the ability to find and buy used equipment and make it "right" if it is worn or, otherwise not quite "operational..." (You, obviously do,) and, new stuff always costs more. 2. I am not very well-versed in the cost of putting together the "right" combination of parts (such as intercoolers, turbos and such,) and would rather err on the high side than the low side, so that someone with budget that is dependent on my figures here, doesn't come up with not enough money to finish this.

I forgot to add any money for a blow-off valve or a waste gate controller... probably $200 to $250-worth of stuff, and a carb hat.... another $100.00, or so, if you buy the cheap one.
Using your modus operandus, it might be possible to build a bonafide 500hp turbo slant six for as little as $7,000.00, but I think it would be tough.

But, think about the advantages of the leaning tower of power, vs. using a 360, for example: You (with the 500hp slant six) have an engine that has a slow, smooth idle, lots of low-end torque, great driveability, good gas mileage, has no requirement for an expensive 8.75" rear end and TWO sets of gears, (a 4.88 for the strip and a 2.76 for the hiway.... the 2.76 seems to work perfectly for both in the slant car.) That gear will KILL a built 360 on the drag strip.

The stock drive shaft will probably fit and work perfectly, where a 360 would probably need a new one built.

I have not addressed fuel delivery problems (yet) because this thread is JUST about the engine; fuel pumps and cells are more of a chassis issue, I think.

There may well be serious omissions on this list, but at the moment I can't think of any...
ANYBODY, please?

Please feel free to add, subtract or discuss anything about this thread!:coffee2:

 

[CichliDart]

I can be very tight with a buck when it comes to working on my cars. I worked fast food at minumum wage for a few years in high school and scrimped to keep cars on the road. The junkyard is the first thing that pops in my head when I think about a needed part, then swap meets. Now 30 years later I have a few bucks in the bank and can buy new things but always scrounge for a cheap way to do things. I like that high end prices are being used as it gives me a high realistic amount to expect and I know if I am patient I can sometimes score parts cheaper.

I bought a remanned Cardone distributor a few days ago for about $50. but will probably be paying full price on intercooler stuff.

When I am uncomfortable fixing some things I pay up and have a pro or someone experienced do it. Exception being I want to learn to weld as there are soooo many things I need to have welded and I know it is feasible.


I check for updates on this daily :cheers:
Please keep up the good work Bill! :happy1:

Mike

Junior.

I deliberately set the prices on the high side for two reasons; 1. not everybody has the ability to find and buy used equipment and make it "right" if it is worn or, otherwise not quite "operational..." (You, obviously do,) and, new stuff always costs more. 2. I am not very well-versed in the cost of putting together the "right" combination of parts (such as intercoolers, turbos and such,) and would rather err on the high side than the low side, so that someone with budget that is dependent on my figures here, doesn't come up with not enough money to finish this.

I forgot to add any money for a blow-off valve or a waste gate controller... probably $200 to $250-worth of stuff, and a carb hat.... another $100.00, or so, if you buy the cheap one.
Using your modus operandus, it might be possible to build a bonafide 500hp turbo slant six for as little as $7,000.00, but I think it would be tough.

But, think about the advantages of the leaning tower of power, vs. using a 360, for example: You (with the 500hp slant six) have an engine that has a slow, smooth idle, lots of low-end torque, great driveability, good gas mileage, has no requirement for an expensive 8.75" rear end and TWO sets of gears, (a 4.88 for the strip and a 2.76 for the hiway.... the 2.76 seems to work perfectly for both in the slant car.) That gear will KILL a built 360 on the drag strip.

The stock drive shaft will probably fit and work perfectly, where a 360 would probably need a new one built.

I have not addressed fuel delivery problems (yet) because this thread is JUST about the engine; fuel pumps and cells are more of a chassis issue, I think.

There may well be serious omissions on this list, but at the moment I can't think of any...
ANYBODY, please?

Please feel free to add, subtract or discuss anything about this thread!:coffee2:

 

[Bill Dedman]

I can be very tight with a buck when it comes to working on my cars. I worked fast food at minumum wage for a few years in high school and scrimped to keep cars on the road. The junkyard is the first thing that pops in my head when I think about a needed part, then swap meets. Now 30 years later I have a few bucks in the bank and can buy new things but always scrounge for a cheap way to do things. I like that high end prices are being used as it gives me a high realistic amount to expect and I know if I am patient I can sometimes score parts cheaper.

I bought a remanned Cardone distributor a few days ago for about $50. but will probably be paying full price on intercooler stuff.

When I am uncomfortable fixing some things I pay up and have a pro or someone experienced do it. Exception being I want to learn to weld as there are soooo many things I need to have welded and I know it is feasible.


I check for updates on this daily :cheers:
Please keep up the good work Bill! :happy1:

Mike

Mike,
I share your philosophy, but have my limitations when it comes to carbs, ignition modules and cams... a bad one looks just like a good one to me, so I usually try to buy those items new, so my ignorance doesn't get in the way...

Thanks for your kind words!:cheers: