Slow 1/8 with 74 440 dart

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it doesn’t sound like you made more than a couple of passes.

My suggestion would be to get a handle on the timing curve situation…….. and go make some more runs.

Although the “combo” isn’t perfect……. It should ET better than it does.
Part of the “problem” with a new driver in a new combo is the lack of familiarity with the car.
Like most things in life, it takes practice to get good at it.
 
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NoahSewal said:
i have never degrees a cam yet so i'm sure it would be a learning curve. do you have to get tdc by pulling the head on the ds or could i just stick something through the spark plug hole and have someone rotate the engine?
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Oh no. You can use a piston stop in the spark plug hole. The procedure is grammar school math. It's very simple once you see what's going on. I'm sorry you're not local. I would show you how to do it, mess it back up and make you do it. lol
 
You can check your cam with the motor in the car. You don't need a degree wheel. You can use your balancer. You will need a piston stop, stagger tape and a dial indicator with a magnetic base. You need to remove all the spark plugs and the driver side rocker shaft. Assuming it is a hydraulic flat tappet? It's not as handy as having the motor out of the car but It is doable. If you find it to be way off then you can decide how you want to fix it from there.
 
92b said:
You can check your cam with the motor in the car. You don't need a degree wheel. You can use your balancer. You will need a piston stop, stagger tape and a dial indicator with a magnetic base. You need to remove all the spark plugs and the driver side rocker shaft. Assuming it is a hydraulic flat tappet? It's not as handy as having the motor out of the car but It is doable. If you find it to be way off then you can decide how you want to fix it from there.
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He'll also need one solid lifter OR he can flip the #1 intake lifter upside down.
 
RustyRatRod said:
He'll also need one solid lifter OR he can flip the #1 intake lifter upside down.
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He can use the hydraulic. The spring in the lifter is way stronger than the spring in the dial indicator.
 
71Demon528 said:
Well that gives you all winter to go over the car and make it race ready come next season.

Ford Torino GT is a sweet car. I dc if it’s not a mopar lol.
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This has been an interesting post and responses read. I'm not the genius tech guy as those who have responded to your OP, just a 70 year old guy that has hot rodding in my blood. It doesn't matter that you have a blue oval car, it's an era car and those of us who are like minded can appreciate other brands, even though we prefer Mopars. Congrats on the Dart, good luck getting it ready for the next racing season, and make sure to post pictures of the Torino.
 
I would degree that cam before I spent any money buying different parts. Probably wouldn't hurt to advance it a couple of degrees either.
 
I wouldn’t expect 7 out of that combo. Is the cam degree‘d properly? That a pretty Tall tire too.
 
The Wallace predicts that 78mph@3500 raceweight is 258 hp.
That Dart should be up in the 90s mph; 93 would be 438hp@3500pounds, (which is where my 367 sits.)
Which means, at 258, she is down some 180 hp, or over 40% !
So, IMO, something serious is going on here.

IMO
The 78mph @ over 6000rpm in Second gear is telling us that the top-end is weak.
The 60ft is telling us that the engine is weak at low-rpm.
Cam timing always swaps one end for the other, so you can't have two weak ends with bad cam-timing;
Therefore;
IMO, the engine is just plain weak.

IMO, This is further supported by;
A [email protected] cam on a 108LCA, that may be in at around 106 for an Ica of 70*, that is still making 150 psi cranking cylinder pressure; seems pretty normal; therefore,
Cam timing is Not something I'd be thinking about just yet and
I'd be looking elsewhere, like;

>The overlap period of that cam is gonna be around 72 degrees.
Shorty headers are gonna kill the overlap tuning, and with it I'll guess 30 hp on that cam, or more.
>Detonation will also kill power way worse than a few degrees sub-optimum Power-Timing. let me guess 20 hp
> the low CCP is another place power is lost, and I'll guess 15 hp.
>But even if you add up all the estimated powerlosses, that only totals 65 hp; and we're looking for almost triple that !
There is NO WAY that cam-timing is gonna steal 115 hp.
nor will secondaries failing to open.
> AFR problems

IMO
7 inches vacuum, with that cam @25* Idle-Timing is telling us something, and together with the plugs, she is not a happy engine. I would expect more vacuum from that combo. like 11 or more.
(Shoot, the 292/292/108 (249@050), in my little 367 pulled 11in no problem, with a well placed Transfer slot exposure.)

IMO
that 3000 stall is not that big a deal. With 4.56s, by 20/25 mph, she should be pulling lots of rpm. A 440 in an A-body, and weak bottom end, should not be heard in the same sentence.

If I had to guess, I'd be looking into one or more of;
a flatted cam/valve-float/lifter pump-up, or
problems in the ring-seal, or
poor-flowing heads.
Or some combination.
After that is fixed, whatever it may be,
then, if it was my race-car, I would:
ditch the shorties; like in a heartbeat;
rework the distributor,
send fresh cold air to the carb,
make sure the fuel-system is good to a minimum 438hp, lol,
and then, begin to fatten up the AFR.

Happy HotRodding
 
I agree, there should be more vacuum with a (relatively) small cam in a 440. The [email protected] cam in my 451 pulls 8" at idle!

Also, forget you ever heard that "PV needs to be half the idle vacuum". Holley just told people that to give them a starting point but it's rarely correct except for stock cams with big idle vacuum. At idle the PV is not even in the circuit supplying fuel so don't worry about it being below idle vac. You said you drive the car on the street, so you need something closer to half your cruise vacuum, and tune from there. I have 8" Hg. (not "pounds") :p at idle, and 15" at a 3000 rpm cruise. My PV is either 8.5" or 9.5", can't remember right now. It really helps to have a vac gauge and an AFR meter on the dash, too :)

Don't be afraid of idle timing. The bigger the cam, the more it wants. 25 degrees sounds reasonable. But the first thing to do is to check your timing marks, as already discussed. Make sure TDC (and 36 BTDC) is really where you think it is.

Keep working, you'll see big improvements!
 
I read everything in this thread and the more I think about it, the more is everything pointing to the timing, or ignition problems being the issue. Are you sure that your balancer is actually correct, that the ring has not slipped. The 7" of vacuum at idle makes no sense, the 30 degrees at idle with 36 total make no sense. The engine making no low end power and no top end power make no sense. With a 244 @ 50 cam you should at least make some top end power if nothing else. Being that this is a relatively low weight A body with 4.56 gears and a 3000 stall converter it should get off the line pretty quick. I have run 2.0-2.2 60 foot times with stock 5.0 5 speed Mustangs in the late 80's with street tires and 3.08 gears... 7" of idle vacuum to me indicate low idle timing, not 30 degrees. That engine should easily pull over 10" of vacuum at like 20-24 degrees initial. What is strange is that you say that it was pinging at 4000 + which would mean that the timing is way advanced. You can easily lock out the timing on the distributor and just run it at 36 degrees fixed timing to see how it runs. Also check your ECU box to make sure that it is working correctly, and get a positive piston stop and check that your balancer is correct.

What I think may be the issue is that you have a stock distributor that has a ton of mechanical advance, like close to 30 degrees with some heavy springs in it that will not let it fully advance till 4500 + rpm or something like that, a smog era distributor. If you have a distributor that is like that, that engine will always be a dog. For it to idle you are having to maybe set it at 15 degrees or so, but then you end up with 45 degrees total. 15 degrees is too low to get your vacuum into the 10+ range and 45 degrees + will cause detonation and kill the power up top. Since the timing curve is so slow it will also never make any power in the midrange as the timing is just to little there. If your balancer ring has slipped it will compound everything as there you have no idea where you really are.

I would like to set the distributor with about 10-14 degrees of mechanical advance all the way in by 2200-2500 rpm, and set your initial timing at 22-24 degrees. If not a completely locked out distributor at 36 degrees timing. Make sure that if you have a stock distributor that the vacuum canister is attached to the distributor so that the magnetic pickup is not flopping all over the place in there on a loose plate.
 
What Distributor and coil are you running? If it's mostly a street car you probably want VA. What are your plugs gapped? There are a couple of threads going on the HEI conversion in the Electrical section. I would do that b/4 going to an MSD box unless you have a good known 6AL. Or by E core coil and the Hi Rev 7500 box eliminate the ballast to keep it Mopar. Coil with heat sink $25-35. Hi Rev box about $40. Or same coil, HEI module $20, GM heatsink from Rock Auto $25 and connectors for the HEI conversion. Both cheap and effective.
Here's an example of the 440 that was in my car whenever I bought it. TRW 2266F .030, 75 thou in the hole, .020 shim hg, home ported 906 heads 91cc checked, 292/509 purple shaft the old version, Team G intake 850 dp, T/A 3800 convertor and 391s. It liked 38-40 total timing and 24 initial. Ran a best of 11.91 @111. I do run the MSD Pro billet because it is easier to fix the timing curve.
 
NoahSewal said:
yes i've since fixed the timing advance and it's much better. revs like it should very smooth through the whole rpm
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Hey Noah, can you give more details on the timing before you fixed the curve and after you fixed the curve?
 
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