Solar Panels, for CIVIL discussion

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This is your words. "I bet I get as many days of sunshine where I live as you do, and the math doesn’t work out." Show me the math that says my panels don't work out. You can't because it does work and it works for lots of other folks who have actually done the math and actually have personal experience with them, with or without the tax credits.

You make a few solid points, actually you're more like a cheerleader standing behind another guy who actually engaged the conversation and added quite a bit of good intel. Only one time did he feel the need to comment on the dead horse. Seems practical does it not?

I said it doesn’t work out for ME. I don’t make my decisions based on what you do. Don’t be offended by that, it’s just the fact.

I made some good points. But I’m not standing behind someone cheerleading.

I said I’m not into redundancy and Phreakish laid out so many good points that I gave him his proper recognition he deserves for making them.
 
I have 3 120 watt tweselvans.I also have 3 solar generators just incase the power goes out for more than a day to alternate with my gas generator.Use solar at night and gas during the day.Its Just for emergency but A friend is helping build a 16x20 green house and my oupes 2400 will power it till I get electricity run to it.Using a small fan and grow lights it will do.
 
I said it doesn’t work out for ME. I don’t make my decisions based on what you do. Don’t be offended by that, it’s just the fact.

I made some good points. But I’m not standing behind someone cheerleading.

I said I’m not into redundancy and Phreakish laid out so many good points that I gave him his proper recognition he deserves for making them.
RB said "I bet I get as many days of sunshine where I live as you do, and the math doesn’t work out." Can you show me the me? SMH.

Maybe I'm just better with math. No offence.
 
RB said "I bet I get as many days of sunshine where I live as you do, and the math doesn’t work out." Can you show me the me? SMH.

Maybe I'm just better with math. No offence.

You want me to post my financial information here? Not hardly.

My math works. Again, because you are just wanting to argue how smart you are a virtue signal that you are saving the environment I’ll repeat myself.

The cost of the system, the install, the anticipated maintainance does not amortize out. IOW’s the return on the investment is so horribly low I could put that money is a CD account and get a better return.

Phreakish told you the exact same thing to you. So I don’t know what new math you are using but the ROI of solar is so sorry it’s not even a topic of discussion for me any more.

You effectively took tax payer money and put it to sleep. The short term economic gain that came from the already subsidized industry and the labor to install it pales in comparison to what you lose by the low return.

Your myopic dystopian view of what powers the world and what kills the environment just don’t match the facts and reality of the farce of it all.

Go back and read what Phreakish wrote. Read it until it makes sense.

I don’t put money to sleep just so I can fool myself into thinking I have done the world a favor at my expense.

Im not at all altruistic like that.
 
Fear mobilizes. This is how we get so many taxes. We are so far from entrepreneurs building a”better mouse trap” then selling it to the public it is crazy. The bulk of these”green projects” are cost plus. Which by definition is the cost of the project then the profit percentage is bid on. They have no idea nor do they care the cost because these” pork projects” have built in cost projections meaning the costs can and are expected to increase. We are being sold a “PIG IN A POKE”!
 
Calculating ROI is so simple, a child can do it. Solar makes economic sense for some, and not for others.
As the consumer yes... a rough calculation can tell whether or not these make sense for you.

As a taxpayer it's a loser every time.
 
Solar and wind energy makes sense because it’s renewable energy plus it takes the strain off the already over worked power grid. Meaning less people would be using less power from the grid hence less strain on it.
If people would take a little time and use their computer or what ever they use before they start whining ,they might learn about the advancements that have and are being made to these systems since the first ones.

As far as taxes go look out the window at the roads we drive on.How are they going get repaired so we can drive our precious rides on and the rest of the infrastructure? Or clean up the messes after tornadoes ,mudslides or floods. The cost for these goes up just like car parts and other thing.
 
They aren't less toxic. The contribution from mining and the PM2.5 which results are on-par if not in excess of what coal mining and burning creates. Windmills are even worse, mostly due to the fiberglass dust that gets generated by manufacturing.
PM2.5 is far more dangerous than any other atmospheric emissions allowed, but of course we ignore it because the mining is 'exportable' to places where the general public doesn't see or feel it. Yay for 3rd worlds.

Hooray for 3rd worlds indeed. If they'd push this eco agenda on the third world, we might see meaningful change. But then we have to pay for it and if you can't shove it off on them, what's the point?
I paid out of pocket 40 grand for mine, I dont thbink you helped me pay for it!!

That's appreciated, and I'm sure that you know far more than most the true cost of this. Take away the subsidies and the tax breaks and the financial smoke n' mirrors, and all of a sudden the green starts to....turn brown. That's my big issue; the people that want a greener world don't have a clue what's really involved.

Much respect to someone that was willing to shoulder the FULL cost of this. If the people fighting for it had to pay for it themselves...they'd find something else to fight over.
Part of the problem is that some have boiled the question down to only carbon. But when it comes to 'harm reduction', carbon isn't the only factor. Even if the solar panel offset the same amount of carbon (it probably does in some places, and solar can also go where we've already going to rip out the environment), the dust and other pollutants released are non-zero, and in some cases are alarmingly large.

Part of the problem is that eggheads simply want everything to BE electric and try to kill all markets for fossil fuels, because harm reduction isn't really the goal. The goal, for better or worse, to eliminate the use of oil/coal/tar because the assumption is that those materials are considered 'new' inputs into the complex equation that is the energy balance of our world. The reason they glom onto solar and wind is because extracting energy from those systems balances that equation when it comes to human contribution. But that's also a massive over-simplification.

The reality is that the world, at and above population densities from ~100 years ago, relies on massive additional power inputs. Manging the knock-on effects of such a thing is also going to be a thing we need to deal with, and humanity has a decent track record when it comes to dealing with slow-moving disasters. Electrification is known among all the eggheads to be a knee-jerk stopgap that won't actually have much effect, but they're banking on the hope that it opens other technological advancements or helps 'ease' us off of 'fossil fuels' so that newer tech will be more readily adopted because they're all already electric. This isn't explained in public for the same reason medical decisions have never been fully fleshed out in public either (lets ignore the obvious exception, please). No sane person thinks that there's enough 'rare earth' minerals for everyone to own and consume and dispose of a significant mass of annually, indefinitely. Recyling those materials often requires a significant amount of the energy they were used to extract previously. As a result, the amount of energy consumption per-capita needs to decrease substantially, which is probably for the better, but no one likes watching politicians rove around in luxo-barges while we're told to drive our radio-flyers to work either.

As with all things, it's a balance, and people need to know a lot more about the system they choose to participate in if they're going to argue their decision is somehow 'better'. In the end, the vast majority are doing it as a result of poor analysis - environmental, financial, or otherwise - and then rationalizing it after the fact.
Damn straight. This is NOT a '100% electric by 2023!' problem. Not by a damn sight.

Solar and wind energy makes sense because it’s renewable energy plus it takes the strain off the already over worked power grid. Meaning less people would be using less power from the grid hence less strain on it.
If people would take a little time and use their computer or what ever they use before they start whining ,they might learn about the advancements that have and are being made to these systems since the first ones.

As far as taxes go look out the window at the roads we drive on.How are they going get repaired so we can drive our precious rides on and the rest of the infrastructure? Or clean up the messes after tornadoes ,mudslides or floods. The cost for these goes up just like car parts and other thing.
I don't think you mean power grid the way it's really applied. Solar and wind are still moving that power from source to sink, and that happens through the grid. ALL of this, EV's and 'clean' sources both, require VAST improvements to the power grid. Coal, gas, and even wood all reduce the load on the grid. Any electrical, either draw or input, increases that load.


Remember, a car being charged is something like the power equivalent to sixteen homes. That's all power going from somewhere, to somewhere else. Imagine if each house in a subdivision has to add that kind of load for just one car....that's a lot of infrastructure increase.

I saw a news article today that said there's a new 'solar' (ahem....solar-powered?) car....that goes 500 miles between charges. If it's being charged, what's the solar for?


That's the problem with all this greenwashing...it's all hype and people....buy hype.
 
What I was talking about was the solar used by a home owner or business owner which relieve the pressure on the grid. Guess I should have been more specific about that.

But I do think adding solar or wind power to help out the grid by power companies would help that out also.

As far as EVs we could be all driving them now if it wasn’t for Henry Ford’s mass production ,because in the early 1900s
they were around and gaining popularity but we’re to costly to build.
 
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What I was talking about was the solar used by a home owner or business owner which relieve the pressure on the grid. Guess I should have been more sacrifice about that.

But I do think adding solar or wind power to help out the grid by power companies would help that out also.

As far as EVs we could be all driving them now if it wasn’t for Henry Ford’s mass production ,because in the early 1900s
they were around and gaining popularity but we’re to costly to build.


You need to investigate further how wind and solar work.

They are horribly inefficient.

None of that matters when you think you are saving the world when you don’t even need to.

I refuse to bow to the lies of the Bolshevik ecoterrorists.
 
Calculating ROI is so simple, a child can do it. Solar makes economic sense for some, and not for others.

Solar sort of works out OK in the desert for some residence. Totally dependent on electic provider. One provideer, it makes total sense as the rates are double our lower cost group on east end of valley. When you are getting gashed for an $800+/month bill in hot months, solart makes financial sense in that equation. My worst month is about 400/month, avg for the year is about 200 is my guess.

I had a quote for an install. 44K... LOL I spoke with my friend that is an electrician 2 years ago about it. He said to source all the stuff, get permits and everything, total cost doing it ourselves would have been 8,800. My payback period, about 44 months. If you can do it yourself, get it most of the way and have the final hook ups done by an electrician, you are MILES ahead on cost.

No surprise the power providers are not keen on paying for what you backfeed onto the grid. They want that juice for free. Most changed the metering of the backfeed to zero almost nothing.

Also the panels degreed in efficiency over time.

Environmentally, GREEN solutions aren't really green, other than the appearance of not burning a fossil fuel to create energy/movement. All solutions have major warts. Isn't any way the power grid in CA can support 7+ million cars being recharged. Fantasy land stuff there.
 
I see my meter ad I require about 1.9-2.1Kw/Hr according to my smart meter. My hot water and heater. dryer and stove are gas. F the electricity, MY GAS has gone UP 400% in 3 months! We used to pay $75 for the gas bill, our last bill was $400. Wife turned down heater to 63 and it turns on to 66 at 8PM to 930. and we dont have AC. I got a slight raise this year but Im way under my last years old rate paychecks with these natural gas prices.
Got some more bad news for you... they are looking for another 13% increase too...

SoCalGas Submits 2024-2027 Rate Request to Invest in Infrastructure Reliability and Resiliency, Furthering California's Clean Energy Goals

The consumer always ends up paying for CA liberals unrealistic green utopia.
 
Some on here say”it’s only a few dollars raise in taxes to pay for these programs”! SOLYNDRA was a 45 billion loss for taxpayers but no one was charged for it. Now the other six were losers too with an average of 25 billion each. And again no one was charged or even fined but the taxes were not dropped they continued as such. As far as wind farms, we don’t know the extent of taxes paid/used and they don’t want us to know. Set in on the hearings-that is your right- you will find they don’t know what has been spent or the extent of what will be spent because they have the stupid taxpayers that has given them a blank check! But the end result is our deficit and our country falling behind. Free stuff????
 
Those wind farms are places right into the routes of migratory birds in SE California and the EPA's not saying boo about the thousands of predatory (and non predator) bird strikes these generate. We shut hydro power down for the Delta smelt (all 30 of them) and some spotted gnat catcher but we (they) turn a blind eye on hundreds of dead hawks, falcons, and other birds, chopped up by these monster blades. Just don't put them in known bird routes!
 
Those wind farms are places right into the routes of migratory birds in SE California and the EPA's not saying boo about the thousands of predatory (and non predator) bird strikes these generate. We shut hydro power down for the Delta smelt (all 30 of them) and some spotted gnat catcher but we (they) turn a blind eye on hundreds of dead hawks, falcons, and other birds, chopped up by these monster blades. Just don't put them in known bird routes!
That's probably where the best wind currents are. Good for migratory birds. Good for wind powered generators which are bad for birds.
 
That's probably where the best wind currents are. Good for migratory birds. Good for wind powered generators which are bad for birds.
California Delta water supply rerouting is essential for irrigation but bad for a fish (?) but they stopped that cold for a useless fish. Progress.......
I think that solar power today how it's structured is not the best, 20 year leases on 10 yr solar panels, battery packs that WILL wear out on same long term lease. Just buy the panels outright. California cut the regenerative buy back rate 75%. Did the public vote on that....nope. Closed door policy making with the frosting to the lawmakes provided by So Cal Edison...... just shaking my head at this.
 
It’s kind of like they really don’t care for the”environment”!
 
These appeared fall 2022, when the roadside foliage disappeared, took these this fall 2023....Today at ~1PM, they were 20-25% covered with snow & ice on a cloudy day...yeah that ain't workin'
20231117_114007.jpg


20231117_114026.jpg

There is a LOT of activity around this site, excavation/grading, just NW of the terminus of Rt. 885 at Rt. 837 Clairton PA..across from the US Steel/Clairton Cokeworks..hundreds of acres of trees & brush gone for this Sh*t......oh brother.......
 
A week ago, those solar arrays were at least 50% covered w/snow & ice, anybody with a grasp on reality & real data able to assess the % of their generation wasted to heat them to prevent that?
 
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