Starter Problem

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Moparornocar51

Moparornocar51

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Hey guys i have a problem with my starter and my transmission gear rim when i crank the engine (426sb from hughes) the starter crank to the converter rim and it sounds like the teeth from the starter will not really reach the teeth from the converter it sounds really bad everything is new, i made some pics how far the starter teeth goes in, i guess my transmission wall is to plump(727 sb out of a truck) maybe thats the problem i dont knew why...

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I hope you guys can help me out thx alot Peter
 
Peter, car and truck transmissions are the same in the bellhousing area so that's not the problem. I can't tell a lot from the pics but it looks like the starter gear is engaging into the ring gear ok, but maybe it's the angle of the pic? Nothing looks terribly chewed up from what I see. I assume by your description that the starter grinds when you try to start it? Is that correct? Do you have a different starter to try? May be a bad drive on the starter. I assume the cables and battery are heavy enough?
 
fishy68 said:
Do you have a different starter to try? May be a bad drive on the starter.
Click to expand...

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I think you have a defective starter, plain and simple. Might be a bad starter drive, or bent/ broken engagement fork, etc,
 
Hi guys thx alot first!! The drive from the starter is going in into the end of the teeth from the converter gear! It was my thought too at the first time that i dont have enough battery power or something like that.. the cables are strong enough and the battery is from varta its also new, but when i bought the engine from a forum user here, he told me that the engine starts really hard, so i will try to borrow a optima battery from my friend, i do have a second starter but its the same problem its a starter about 90$ now i have a 3hp starter from ebay, that one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chrysler-Mo...Parts_Accessories&hash=item589c0bd5c0&vxp=mtr

I dont wanna spend another hundred dollars, but i have to find out what my problem is, and i will make a short vid while the engine is cranking, have to try that with a friend and i will let you guys knew what i found out
 
Is the bolt not tight? Looks like I can see the threads. Also, that bolt is incorrect, if my guess is right, and will therefore hold the starter out of alignment.
 
No u cant see the threaths and the starter is boldet in right, the gold one is just a washer, what i forgot to mention that when i tried on my other starter wich one is remove from the car i put a ground cable from the battery (-) to the starter and a (+) cable from the battery plus to the starter motor and then the starter cames out, but with the starter installed i tried the same manytimes and that didnt work, just when i installed the starter with the battery and starter relay ect.. i turned the key and it starts, thats why i used a srewdriver to see how far the starter cames out
 
So i made a short vid now, i think the battery have enough power and is strong enough but what im confused about yesterday when i put the starter gear out with the srewdriver it was still in the same position, normally it should go back you can see that in the video

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGtCfxTPI9U&feature=youtu.be"]426 sb starter grind to transmission gear! - YouTube[/ame]

I hope you can help me guys thx Peter
 
Yea sorry 51. I got on a computer with a larger screen and now I see that I did have the washer confused with threads. In the video the starter gear seems to be engaged before you crank it over. Then when you crank it and release the key the gear retracts like it should. So I'm not sure whats wrong. Did you engage the gear with a screwdriver. We could get a little more out of the video if you turn it over, release the key and then repeat that process. One thing I can't see is how long that bolt is. Make sure it isn't hitting the trans case.
 
@ magnumdart the bolt has the right large it isnt hit the trans case, even i change the bolt, what would it change as you can clearly see the starter is directly to the trans bellhousing, there is no clearance between, before i do that again and again i wait for someone can tell me whats the problem is, because i dont wanna change my transmission converter ring.
 
To me it sounded fine in the video. But the gear was already engaged from you pushing it out manually with a screwdriver. I would think it should retract on it's own even when you engage it manually. Maybe it's a little tight against the flywheel?? When you loosen the starter bolts can you move the starter any? Normally you can't move it much but sometimes even .030" can make a difference. If you can't get it to move any try doiing another video without having the gear engaged manually.

BTW: the teeth on the ring gear don't look the greatest but I have seen them startt ok before with teeth that looked that bad.
 
51, I had the same problem once. I had not run the top bolt all the way in which caused the starter to be at a slight angle. My bottom bolt was flush because it was the easier bolt to get to. I ran my hand up to the top bolt ear on the starter and felt a gap between the starter and the bell housing. I had to loosen both bolts a bit so I could wiggle the starter and then it slid in properly. It started easily with no grinding sound. FYI
 
May be a silly question, but what kind of transmission did this engine have behind it, before you got it?

It is possible that the indexing dowels in the block are missing? A manual transmission indexing dowel usually doesn't cause starter problems, because it's only a few thousandths of an inch, but missing them entirely could easily cause an improper tooth engage, from the bellhousing not aligning.

You mentioned that the prior owner mentioned the engine started hard.

I had a transmission come back from someone who kept having trouble destroying pump drive bearings because the engine had offset indexing dowels in it. Indexing dowels are often overlooked. Sometimes they are completely missing or damaged if a block has been set on them, upright in storage, etc.

I would also compare your starter to another starter, in terms of indexing size at the tip of the starter gear housing.

The starter does not align with it's bolts. Chrysler starters align with the end of the starter gear housing, into the index on the bellhousing, directly behind it. You might want to check and make sure that the bellhousing is free of any contaminants in that indexing hole and also check to make sure the starter has the right size diameter and depth of circle on the end of the gear housing.

I would suspect the starter first, if you are running an aftermarket starter. Compare it to an OE casing, check the diameter of the end of the gear housing that has the round index with a dial caliper and check the transmission casing for contaminants or signs of it not completely indexing. If the starter has a small index circle on it's end, sometimes it can start nicely and eventually move away from the ring gear, because of the same reason you suspected the bolt being the culprite.

When compared to an OE starter/ casing, sometimes they require a collar to get that gear engaged with the teeth if it's shallow in tooth depth. Or, if the gear is not engaging in thrust, could require drilling the trans case or removing some material from the end of the starter gear housing. It looks like the starter is mounting flush from the side that I can see in your pics, but I couldn't tell you without seeing or feeling it against the transmission, if it is.

My money is on the starter indexing end not fitting the trans properly.
 
@ all i looked at my starter again the bolts are tight the upper and the lower one and i dont have any clearance between my starter and the bellhousing, the indexing dowels are installed and not damaged or anything..... i didnt try if i can move the starter when i loosen the bolts i will try that tomorrow and in the video it maybe sounds ok, but the camera sound is confusing it really sounds not good in real
 
If the starter ears engage the transmission casing completely flush, as they appear to be, the thrust depth is correct, but you may still have an issue with the alignment index of the starter being too small for the casing or possibly off center, or coming in at a slight angle (explained below). It should be dead center with the gear shaft, on the inside of the gear housing, that holds the gear, all the way through the end. If the gear shaft hole is not centered in the starter case, it could have been machined off. Check for runout/ off center gear shaft on the starter to that end index, as well as the diameter. All it takes to know is to use a dial caliper to measure the diameter of the index on the starter and measure the inner diameter of the trans casing, with a drill bit or caliper, if you can get it in there.

You may want to try another starter in it's place to see if you are experiencing a problem with the starter, itself.

I've also seen starter motor flexing on the aluminum starter case, where the motor of the starter itself was contacting exhaust, contacting engine to trans bracing or contacting the block itself. The ear can be flush and you can still have out of square issues with the motor and gear shaft itself if the motor or any other part of the starter is contacting anything at all, other than the mounting surface of the trans. Be sure it's not.

I also know that some transmissions have sleeves installed in the starter index. Some manual bellhousings actually have moveable indexing cups, entirely for full adjustment.

Check easy stuff first, like motor/ housing clearances against the block, exhaust, braces, etc, then disconnect the starter if that looks ok, to check it's indexing stuff.
 
anyone else notice that the ring teeth look really worn closer to the tips ? im thinking his problem might go away with a new ring gear .
or he could try shimming just one side of the starter to bring the gears closer together since it looks like the teeth are not catching as much as they should , ive had to do that many times on chevys because they had poorly machined belhousings.
 
How you mean i could use shims? then the different will be bigger then closer or not? Maybe i could try to take some material away from the starter ect...
 
ohiocowboy1277 said:
anyone else notice that the ring teeth look really worn closer to the tips ? im thinking his problem might go away with a new ring gear .
or he could try shimming just one side of the starter to bring the gears closer together since it looks like the teeth are not catching as much as they should , ive had to do that many times on chevys because they had poorly machined belhousings.
Click to expand...

GM starters bolt up into the engine block. All GM transmissions have the exact same bolt pattern and do not have provisions for the starter.

http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00tBeESYdsgfka/GM-Starter-Delco-8000058-.jpg

If you think about how changing the up/down position looks from the front/back of the engine, it plays with the radius of the ring gear against the position of the starter gear. You shim GM starters if the starter gear is loud and clashing with the ring gear (too close).

The only thing any kind of shim will do on a Chrysler starter will help with thrust alignment, which isn't a problem here.

Check the motor of the starter, the mounting ears of the starter and any other part of the starter to make sure the edges aren't contacting the engine or exhaust. If that all looks ok, pull the starter and check the starter gear housing alignment dowel and cup in the trans.
 
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqNJzwI37Tg&feature=youtu.be"]Starter Problem on converter ring mopar - YouTube[/ame]So now i make some clear pics and video, the converter ring looks really not good on the tips, all i can say now that i have clearance everywhere, so the starter dont touch on headers or block ect... In the video you can clearly see that the starter stick to the converter and it looks like that one teeth from the starter go into the converter ring and the second teeth of the starter goes straight to one teeth of the converter, it looks like that the distance from the starter gear and the distance from the converter ring are too wide or too small, so how can i solve that problem now

Thx alot Peter

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[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqNJzwI37Tg&feature=youtu.be"]Starter Problem on converter ring mopar - YouTube[/ame]
 
It looks like the ring gear on the converter is a little worn from the problem. Mostly in taper on the ring gear, but the problem is because of the starter sitting too far away from the ring gear.

The starter gears are tapered to help engage the ring gear, but after watching your video a few times, I think the gear isn't disengaging (as shown on the last revolution in your video) because it's binding, from a shallow tooth engagement. The gap between the gear of the starter and ring gear is too far.

At this point, I would start looking at the starter as the culprite. I think you have an indexing problem with the tip of the starter being too small or you may have an issue with the indexing cup in the bellhousing of the transmission being out of round or too big. Either way, there is something keeping the starter too far away from the converter ring gear.

If you are able to look at the top of the starter gear housing index and measure it and get a drill bit or dowel that measures the same size as your starter and use it with a flash light to check the cup in the transmission, that can tell you if the starter index is loose.

It is also a possability that the starter index casting on the starter itself is off. If you have an original starter around, I would urge you to measure the bolt pattern distance, from the center of the bolt holes to the center of the starter index and compare it to an original. Even if the index on the tip of the starter is the same size, it could be off.

If all of that checks out, meaning your small starter has the same measurements as the original, the cup in the transmission looks good and the index diameters match nicely between the starter and cup, you may have to replace the ring gear on the converter or get another converter to correct the problem.

Did you get the engine and converter together, from the same person that told you it was difficult to start?
 
No first i just got the engine itselfs from user Boxer here... then the engine had a external ballanced flexplate behind it installed even the engine is internal ballanced and my trans is neutral ballanced so i dont have any weights on my converter my first mini starter got broken because i had that bad vibrations from my wrong flexplate

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then i got an oem flexplate from a friend and i ordered that new starter wich is installed now i guess i have an original starter here laying around and i will check that tomorrw thx Peter
 
I don't know

The starter gear is "bouncing" at the start of the video. This seems to me to be an electrical problem, either in the starter, or just poor cables/ connections.

If you actually had "wrong parts" IE wrong converter, etc, the thing would simply not be able to engage at all.

There is only one bolt pattern for all gear drive starters, period, end of story.

Mopar starters are not designed to need shims. This is a "GM thing."
 
Im sure the connections are not bad but who knew can i check that with a volt meter or something maybe..? And about my starter this one have a problem for sure is i mention on my posts below that when i put a ground cable to the starter and a positive cable to the motor of the starter the gear didnt came out of the starter but when i tried that on my broken one i have laying here around too the gears came out like it should

here i put the positive cable on
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and the negative on the -connection plug on the starter it works on my broken one but not @ the one i have installed now

I think i will try to buy a new starter first, wich one is a good starter for magnum block and tti headers a body

thx Peter
 
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