Starts and dies for first three times

[mtldart]

Not sure if this is the right section to stick this or not but maybe yall have some insight.
74 Dart. stock slant six. not sure the carb or ignition ive got (only had this car about a month now!!) but ill add some pictures of those just in case.

now that its cold my car will crank, fire and run for about a second and then die. it does this three times every morning until it finally catches and stays running.
a previous owner installed a manual choke on it (that i eventually wanna get back to automatic choke) but half, full, none, or quarter choke doesn't seem to change this three times to actually run routine. I've also tried giving it a little gas, same thing. ive tried giving it a LOT of gas, same thing. I have two carb'd motorcycles and am used to carbs and how to keep things running but this three times to start routine is weird to me, almost like it just isn't getting gas or something, but it obviously is because it stays running after the third start.

it wasn't happening at all during the warmer days. and once I start it in the morning its fine throughout the day even when i park it at work for 8 hours.
ill be putting it in storage for the winter so it's not an urgent thing, but i don't wanna kill my battery trying to start this thing. I do plan on getting a carb rebuild kit over the winter once i actually figure out which carb this is. it is (and will continue to be) my daily driver outside of winter.

for reference it dropped down to -10C over night and was -4C this morning and it was the same as always.

here's a photo of my carb and ignition just in case it matters.
Thanks for any help!!

 

[toolmanmike]

Make sure your choke closes and is adjusted properly and the fast idle speed is set right. Spray the carb and choke good with carb and choke cleaner. That thing is cruddy!

 

[halifaxhops]

Bet your ECU does not like the cold. Does weird stuff to solid state components.

 

[mtldart]

cold and the ecu would make sense. it did do a weird thing the other day where I tried to start it and after the second run and stop of it there was literally nothing when i turned the key, like the battery was disconnected. I let it sit for a few minutes when it did that and it was back to normal right after.

I pulled the clamps this morning and cleaned the posts just in case that was the problem, but I can see how it wouldn't like the jolts in the cold and just shutting down for a few minutes to kinda reset itself.

 

[halifaxhops]

I used to work on C-130 and the boxes always acted up during the first hard freeze.

 

[mtldart]

Make sure your choke closes and is adjusted properly and the fast idle speed is set right. Spray the carb and choke good with carb and choke cleaner. That thing is cruddy!

do you happen to know which carb this is? I can't seem to find the fast idle speed set. I only see one idle adjuster and its just the main adjuster. It looks like some stuff was removed when they changed it to a manual choke. but the choke definitely closes and opens all the way based on the pull of the lever from inside.

 

[TrailBeast]

I'd be making sure the choke works right first.
"now that it's cold out"
On the electrical part a good inspection and cleaning of the bulkhead connectors is in order.

 

[toolmanmike]

do you happen to know which carb this is? I can't seem to find the fast idle speed set. I only see one idle adjuster and its just the main adjuster. It looks like some stuff was removed when they changed it to a manual choke. but the choke definitely closes and opens all the way based on the pull of the lever from inside.

Now the truth comes out. It has been modified and parts are missing. Forget what I said except for the cleaning which won't hurt.

 

[mtldart]

so "make sure the choke works right"
i'm not 100% sure what you guys mean.
when i pull the lever inside it definitely moves the choke open and closed based on the amount of pull i have inside. in that sense, it "works right" but its not an automatic choke that would set itself when i push the pedal to the floor and let it go on the first start like it says in the manual. also, giving it a bit of gas when its as cold as it is (like it says in the manual)

and yeah...it was modified like i said in my first post. it sucks and I want to bring it back up to the stock setup, but i can't control the actions of previous owners sadly.

 

[halifaxhops]

Think @krazykuda has some good carbs.

 

[mtldart]

im comfortable rebuilding carbs, do it all the time on motorcycles.

would it be easier to get the auto choke parts and just "fix" this one or start over from scratch. aside from this cold start issue the car runs and gets about 18-20mpg on the highway so its not in terrible shape.

 

[halifaxhops]

prob cheaper to get a donor carb, sure some one has on put up a wanted ad.

 

[halifaxhops]

Think the choke on there is electric/manual has a box that turns it off at temp I believe forgot the name of it.

 

[Murray]

Check float level when cold. If carb looses fuel when sitting, then you are trying to start the car with an empty float bowl.

 

[Dana67Dart]

it did do a weird thing the other day where I tried to start it and after the second run and stop of it there was literally nothing when i turned the key, like the battery was disconnected

When you say nothing do you mean no crank or no fire.

I'm Ieaning to an electrical issue, ground, connection etc.

 

[mtldart]

the weird thing it did was definitely something electrical going on. no crank, no fire, no lights on when i opened the door nothing. I cleaned up the battery posts this morning assuming that was the problem, but that doesn't seem to be the same problem as the "takes three times to start" issue. but now with clean posts I can eliminate that being the problem tomorrow morning when i try to start it again!

 

[mtldart]

maybe someone can tell me what in the world im missing over here to get this thing to be even remotely back to a stock set up.
i don't appear to have anything related to a "fast idle" screw for my carb.
I am fairly certain i have narrowed it down to be a holley 1945, but of all the pictures i find online none of the brackets match up with mine.
I would love to throw on an electric choke conversion kit onto it and just not muck with a choke ever again, but im worried I will buy it and someone changed some parts around and its just not gonna fit.
anybody know these carbs really well and tell me if im missing parts and/or what i am missing?
the more I look at it the more rigged it seems.

this is the choke side. that wire in the top is the manual choke thats mounted inside the car.

 

[Valiant696]

maybe someone can tell me what in the world im missing over here to get this thing to be even remotely back to a stock set up.
i don't appear to have anything related to a "fast idle" screw for my carb.
I am fairly certain i have narrowed it down to be a holley 1945, but of all the pictures i find online none of the brackets match up with mine.
I would love to throw on an electric choke conversion kit onto it and just not muck with a choke ever again, but im worried I will buy it and someone changed some parts around and its just not gonna fit.
anybody know these carbs really well and tell me if im missing parts and/or what i am missing?
the more I look at it the more rigged it seems.

this is the choke side. that wire in the top is the manual choke thats mounted inside the car.

View attachment 1715420468

 

[Valiant696]

Here's a pic of a spare 1945 carb I have. You're missing all of the choke and fast idle parts. You would be best to find another core carburator and make one good one out of the two or just buy a remanned carb. You'll also need to get the correct choke control that bolts in your exhaust manifold.

 

[AJ/FormS]

maybe someone can tell me what in the world im missing over here to get this thing to be even remotely back to a stock set up.
i don't appear to have anything related to a "fast idle" screw for my carb.
I am fairly certain i have narrowed it down to be a holley 1945, but of all the pictures i find online none of the brackets match up with mine.
I would love to throw on an electric choke conversion kit onto it and just not muck with a choke ever again, but im worried I will buy it and someone changed some parts around and its just not gonna fit.
anybody know these carbs really well and tell me if im missing parts and/or what i am missing?
the more I look at it the more rigged it seems.

this is the choke side. that wire in the top is the manual choke thats mounted inside the car.

View attachment 1715420468

The fast-idle link rod is missing, so that is never gonna work....... unless you be the fast idle. Here's what you do the next time the engine is cold;
Open the idle mixture screws 3/8 turn (CCW); to a max of 3 turns out.
leave the manual choke off.
Step on the gas two times all the way to the floor, and all the way back up, PLUS one more time for each 10* below zero Celsius.
Put the gas pedal down about 1/4 of the way.
Pull the choke on all the way, then open it so about 3/32inch or 2.5mm gap exists between the blade and the airhorn wall then
Hold the gas pedal there. Don't move it.
Now crank it! and keep the pedal were you set it. Keep cranking; this is a test. Crank until it springs to life and still keep the key in crank. OK wait, if it hasn't come alive after 1 minute give the starter a rest. While yur waiting go see if the accelerator pump is working and if the plenum has liquid gas sitting in it. If it doesn't, then start over with a primed pump circuit.
After it is for sure running, back up the key to run, and now change the rpm to some low rpm like 1000 to keep it running. After two to three minutes you can push the choke off and let the engine idle. After she is fully warmed up, increase the idlespeed to 650/700 for the winter, so you don't have to sit there forever, babysitting the pedal.

OK that was the test.
Depending on how well that worked, you make adjustments to the procedure on every succeeding start, until you get it figured out. COLD slantys will tolerate a lot of liquid gas sitting on the plenum floor, during cranking, as long as you keep the butterfly open far enough and long enough, and the choke isn't slammed up tight. In fact, I think they really like it. I even pour gas into the plenum in summer time, after the car has been sitting for more than a week.
If you don't pull the choke off with two or three shots of gas in the plenum,at above -10*C, you will for sure flood the engine. The cure is to shut the choke off, floor the gas pedal, hold it there and keep cranking. The engine is gonna crank a few seconds and then start firing on one or more cylinders as the plugs dry up; keep cranking, sooner or later it's gonna start firing, then running, and when it does, slowly close the throttle so you don't blow it up.
If you flood it really badly, the ring-seal will go away, and no amount of cranking will dry up the plugs. The only cure for this is to pull the plugs and oil up the cylinders. Put about a half a teaspoonful of engine oil in each hole and let it sit for 20 minutes.You can't put in too much, so don't measure it out,lol. The waiting is for the oil to wick uphill all around the rings. You can't wait too long but 20 minutes should be enough. While yur waiting, clean the plugs and blow-dry them, and open the gaps to .038. After 20 minutes crank out the excess; yeah it's gonna come flying outta there making a horrible mess, but it won't wreck your paint. Then install the dry plugs and start over,but don't pump the gaspedal this time,lol..
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I keep a 500ml plastic bottle of gas tucked away under the hood;with 5% two-cycle oil mixed into it and a lil shot of stabilizer, My starting procedure is this; I glug a shot down into the plenum, get in, put the pedal half way down, and crank until it lights. Then back off the throttle as the rpm comes up; badaboom. The colder it gets the more I glug. Sometimes I get it so right, that the engine doesn't turn even one revolution, and she's singing. When my neighbor sees that old girl spring to life like this he almost freaks.
May the Force be with you.

 

[krazykuda]

Not sure if this is the right section to stick this or not but maybe yall have some insight.
74 Dart. stock slant six. not sure the carb or ignition ive got (only had this car about a month now!!) but ill add some pictures of those just in case.

now that its cold my car will crank, fire and run for about a second and then die. it does this three times every morning until it finally catches and stays running.
a previous owner installed a manual choke on it (that i eventually wanna get back to automatic choke) but half, full, none, or quarter choke doesn't seem to change this three times to actually run routine. I've also tried giving it a little gas, same thing. ive tried giving it a LOT of gas, same thing. I have two carb'd motorcycles and am used to carbs and how to keep things running but this three times to start routine is weird to me, almost like it just isn't getting gas or something, but it obviously is because it stays running after the third start.

it wasn't happening at all during the warmer days. and once I start it in the morning its fine throughout the day even when i park it at work for 8 hours.
ill be putting it in storage for the winter so it's not an urgent thing, but i don't wanna kill my battery trying to start this thing. I do plan on getting a carb rebuild kit over the winter once i actually figure out which carb this is. it is (and will continue to be) my daily driver outside of winter.

for reference it dropped down to -10C over night and was -4C this morning and it was the same as always.

here's a photo of my carb and ignition just in case it matters.
Thanks for any help!!
View attachment 1715420406 View attachment 1715420407

I need more pictures of the carb from different angles to tell which one it is...

I have a couple of slant carbs left, but need to see which ones I have... I think I have one good one and one parts carb...

 

[Valiant696]

the weird thing it did was definitely something electrical going on. no crank, no fire, no lights on when i opened the door nothing. I cleaned up the battery posts this morning assuming that was the problem, but that doesn't seem to be the same problem as the "takes three times to start" issue. but now with clean posts I can eliminate that being the problem tomorrow morning when i try to start it again!

Sounds like you have an electrical issue to go with your carb issue. Clean and tighten all your battery cable connections. Make sure the starter relay is tight(it grounds through the mounting screws). Check your bulkhead wiring harness for melted connectors. Then check your ammeter in the gauge cluster to make sure the wires are tight. Lastly put a new ballast resistor on it. Keep the old one for a spare if that doesn't help, you'll need a spare since they go out regularly.

 

[mtldart]

I need more pictures of the carb from different angles to tell which one it is...

I have a couple of slant carbs left, but need to see which ones I have... I think I have one good one and one parts carb...

I'll get some more pictures tomorrow during the day!

 

[mtldart]

Sounds like you have an electrical issue to go with your carb issue. Clean and tighten all your battery cable connections. Make sure the starter relay is tight(it grounds through the mounting screws). Check your bulkhead wiring harness for melted connectors. Then check your ammeter in the gauge cluster to make sure the wires are tight. Lastly put a new ballast resistor on it. Keep the old one for a spare if that doesn't help, you'll need a spare since they go out regularly.

I think it was a dirty battery post. Seems a lot better and hasn't done that no power at all thing again.
I didn't know about the ballast resistor I'll grab one to toss in my toolbox.
I plan on bypassing the ammeter once I take it out of winter storage and putting in a volt meter and redoing the necessary wiring to put in a bigger alternator for a stereo I want to install.

 

[pt70]

MTL, I would remove and clean/brush/grind the ECU box and the fender to get a real good ground for the ECU to work properly.