Steering All Over the Place at 55mph+

[AJ/FormS]

I just jumped in here;

The best way to describe it was it felt like if I made any turn at at all (as simple a merging into another lane) I was going to lose control like it was going to twist (best words o can think to describe it). Even worse when hitting bumps or uneven pavement I thought that was the end for me and struggled to keep it in my lane.

I just jumped in here to say I had a care exactly like that. I hit a train crossing in town at 40 mph and the car just took turned right on me and into the weeds we dent. What a scarry ride that was. I nursed it home and finding nothing, I dug deeper.
What I found was a rotten Passenger side frame that had torn most of the spotwelds from the apron to the firewall; and the only things that was sorta keeping it together were the fenders and a few spotwelds.
Seeing as this was a 50 dollar car, and it was ~1979, That 74 Duster was on it's way to Duster-Heaven, in short order.
I still have most of her, minus the body, in a shed out back. I might still have the "Powerbulge" hood, and one tail-light.
Just so you know, I also have a Barracuda, but a 68 fastback. It cruises real fine at a 100; and is not at all scary at 120 ........ in a straightline. I haven't tried turning it at 120 so can't say what it might be like. But daymn the wind-noise at 120 is ferocious.
And, yur likely gonna need 1.03 T-bars.

 

[Swinger 340]

More....

When done, I added the Steer & Gear's Cop Car power box and upgraded the tie rod tubes to the larger B body one. The Barrracuda now felt like it had a Power Rack and Pinion.

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I agree. Had a issue with my 72' Dodge Van with a 70' 340 installed. I installed TA 50's on the front and larger TA 50's on the rear. After a while the steering felt loose. I crawled under the van and had someone move the steering wheel left and right and noticed that there was no play on any parts, but the steering gear box was moving. After a further inspection, I noticed a crack in the frame where the gear box connects to it. Had it welded but cracked again. I then added extra metal to the frame and that solved the problem. Most street cars, trucks or vans were not designed to be raced or to add aftermarket products. When doing so you may have these issues. Worn or bad parts are the first thing I look for. The second thing is, whatever I or someone else just did, may be in era. Before you buy, CHECK!!!!!

 

[Dale Davies]

If you are good at fabrication you can also rework the 67 K to take a 68/ later idler, but you damn near need a 68/ later for a pattern

So far as the wander, I'd get a pal and start from the top and work carefully down. Do not assume ANYTHING, and especially just because 'it was replaced.' Have a pal wiggle the play in the wheel while you look. Look everyplace there is a bolt, component, bearing, shaft, coupling, tie rod end, coupling or ball joint. Look for unwanted play and movement in everything that is supposed to move, and unwanted movement in everything that is NOT supposed to move. Bear in mind you might have a rusted/ weak/ cracked frame horn, K member, or the steering box loose on it's mounting bolts.

So far as alignment, you can do that yourself with very little special equipment.

That wiggle the steering wheel to check for wear in the steering column and box can be a difficult to explain to some people. What is frequently done is said helper grabs the steering wheel and gives a healthy pull past where resistance is felt. What is required is index finger and thumb only and just move until resistance is felt. Then move back the other way. This just moves where any wear or slop is. The same pertains to watching for wear in tierod ends, pitman arm and idler arm. A worn idler pivot will.move up and down and can generally be felt by pushing up and down on the joint to the tierod.

 

[mosleyme]

It's easy to visually spot a 67 bayonet style idler. Only one tab coming off the K.
The 68 and newer use double shear mounting with a top and bottom plate coming off the K member.

With the A-body migrating from economy car in 1960 to a bigger sometimes performance car, they made things right. (Too bad they didn't go to the Big Bolt Pattern in 67)

Maybe @mosleyme will be kind enough to help you out. He's in Plano.

Where are you in the DFW area? I live in Plano and work in Richardson.

I am a former ASE Certified Master Tech... did suspension and alignment work for several years before and during the time I went to college.

 

[67Mungo]

Where are you in the DFW area? I live in Plano and work in Richardson.

I am a former ASE Certified Master Tech... did suspension and alignment work for several years before and during the time I went to college.

@mosleyme,
Thanks for this reply. I've called several shops telling me they can align it only to never call back or return my calls. I ended up buying offset bushings and new cam bolts. Contemplating buying a home alignment kit as a necessity if I can't find anyone to work on it. Not my first preference as you know it's spring in Texas and we don't get much good weather to drive non-ac cars and rather be driving it than having it up on stands for two weekends (it takes me 4x longer than the average person to do mechanical work ). I'm in Frisco by the way. If you're willing to work on it or know someone that is please let me know! Much appreciated.
Jeff

 

[mosleyme]

@mosleyme,
Thanks for this reply. I've called several shops telling me they can align it only to never call back or return my calls. I ended up buying offset bushings and new cam bolts. Contemplating buying a home alignment kit as a necessity if I can't find anyone to work on it. Not my first preference as you know it's spring in Texas and we don't get much good weather to drive non-ac cars and rather be driving it than having it up on stands for two weekends (it takes me 4x longer than the average person to do mechanical work ). I'm in Frisco by the way. If you're willing to work on it or know someone that is please let me know! Much appreciated.
Jeff

I have met the owner of Plano Tire, pretty sure you would be in good hands. Old school shop, no BS.

Tires, Wheels, & Auto Repair Plano, TX | Plano Tire Co.

Personally hardly have time to work on mine and have plans for this weekend and next, so I wouldn’t be able to help you until about 2 weeks from now. I’m very busy at work, planning, managing and helping on capital equipment installs on a large factory expansion and preparing for the next one after this… just busy and get very few days off.

 

[67Mungo]

I have met the owner of Plano Tire, pretty sure you would be in good hands. Old school shop, no BS.

Tires, Wheels, & Auto Repair Plano, TX | Plano Tire Co.

Personally hardly have time to work on mine and have plans for this weekend and next, so I wouldn’t be able to help you until about 2 weeks from now. I’m very busy at work, planning, managing and helping on capital equipment installs on a large factory expansion and preparing for the next one after this… just busy and get very few days off.

I'll give them a call Monday. Thanks for the recommendation!

 

[67Mungo]

Okay y'all...made the adjustment to max caster with existing set up. It still looks like I have negative caster according to the eyeball test. I bought the offset Moog bushings BUT what do you all think? If I spend the time to put new bushings in the control arms do y'all think it makes more sense to buy tubular or adjustable UCA's for more caster? If so any recommendations? It's just that I'm reading so many different threads that the stock control arms even with the offset bushings wasn't worth it while others say it made all the difference in the world. Local shop is telling me up to 6 hrs at $120hr if they do it and align it which means 12-15 hours for me. Personally if I do it to save money would rather have a nice new set rather than pressing out old bushings. At this point I just want to be able to drive and enjoy the damn car. Drivability is my #1 priority and really never want to see the front suspension again after this for the rest of my life so want to get this right. Lol. Does it matter which spindle is on it? I just assume it's from a 73+ A body like the rest of the suspension parts.

 

[BillGrissom]

Don't go by the Moog instructions when installing them. Those are to move both points outward, for a car that had the mounts pushed in from an accident. Install so the fwd one moves the UCA as far out as possible and the aft one as far in as possible. The $1200 shop cost shows why most people here do such tasks themselves. You can rig a press with Grade 8 bolt & nut, thick washers, and plumbing couplers, all from Ace Hardware.

 

[72bluNblu]

Okay y'all...made the adjustment to max caster with existing set up. It still looks like I have negative caster according to the eyeball test. I bought the offset Moog bushings BUT what do you all think? If I spend the time to put new bushings in the control arms do y'all think it makes more sense to buy tubular or adjustable UCA's for more caster? If so any recommendations? It's just that I'm reading so many different threads that the stock control arms even with the offset bushings wasn't worth it while others say it made all the difference in the world. Local shop is telling me up to 6 hrs at $120hr if they do it and align it which means 12-15 hours for me. Personally if I do it to save money would rather have a nice new set rather than pressing out old bushings. At this point I just want to be able to drive and enjoy the damn car. Drivability is my #1 priority and really never want to see the front suspension again after this for the rest of my life so want to get this right. Lol. Does it matter which spindle is on it? I just assume it's from a 73+ A body like the rest of the suspension parts.

6 hours to install offset bushings and do an alignment is a lot of hours for a shop to do that job. You already have new ball joints by the looks of things, the offset bushings are the only thing they'd be installing. The UCA's have been recently replaced so the camber bolts shouldn't be seized up either. And it definitely won't take you 12-15 hours.

Your procedure should look like this:

• Put the car up on jack stands
• Loosen the torsion bar adjusters completely, count your turns on the way out so you can put them back in the same place
• Remove the wheels
• Support the lower control arm with a block or stand (doesn't need to be fancy, doesn't need to lift anything, just keep the LCA from moving further when you do the next step)
• Remove the camber bolts
• Pull the UCA away from the frame, spin it around on the ball joint so the arms face out
• Use your UCA bushing removal tool to remove the UCA bushings
• Reverse the operation and use your removal tool to install the new offset UCA bushings (for max caster, not by the included instructions!)
• Put the UCA back in the mounts, install the camber bolts for max caster and snug the camber bolts (do not torque yet)
• Remove whatever was supporting the LCA, return the torsion bar adjuster to its original position, put the wheel back on
• Do the other side
• Put the car back on the ground, and then fully torque the camber bolts

Done!

Here's your UCA bushing remover/installer. It's just a 2" pipe coupler, 4" long. A 7/16-20 bolt, 6 to 7" long, a couple of very heavy duty washers (at least 2" in diameter and a good 1/8" thick) and an assortment of standard washers. When I made mine I think it was around $10, probably more now but hopefully still under $20.

Tool works by putting the pipe over the outside end of the UCA bushing, running the bolt with an HD washer on the outside through the pipe and bushing, putting a standard washer and nut on the inside of the bushing, tightening the bolt/nut until it pulls the bushing inside the pipe. To install, you just put the pipe on the inside of the UCA and pull the bushing into the UCA.

Even as a novice with basic hand tools you should be able to do this in under a day, realistically this is a job that should take a couple hours as long as no major hang ups are encountered. Then have the car aligned at the shop. They should be able to do the alignment in an hour for labor cost, if they want more than 2 hours they're up to something.

As far as going to tubular UCA's, it really depends on the car. For a weekend cruiser with 15" rims the caster you can get from the offset bushings (should be around +3.5°) will be just fine. If you're planing on more "spirited" driving, canyon carving, AutoX etc then you might be better off going tubular now.

 

[67Mungo]

@72bluNblu , thanks for putting that all together. Now I feel obligated to give it a whirl your way! I don't have a press and was dreading getting the old bushings out but with that homemade tool I'm for sure more confident, especially since I can just turn the UCA around on the ball joint and not totally remove. I won't be racing, just want a stable ride so sounds like the 3.5 Deg + caster will do the trick. $20 for the tool over $400 UCA's sounds more appealing especially since I'm not a racer and already have the offset bushings and new camber bolts. Now the next step is finding time. Will post when finished whenever that may be.

 

[BillGrissom]

Not sure you need to loosen the LCA adjusters. I would do one side at a time. Jack up by LCA to keep it close to ride height and remove wheel. If you left the front suspension hanging, the UCA would be tight against their bump stop. Could first support frame rail, then jack LCA up a bit, but not hold all the weight. Main thing is don't fully tighten the UCA bolts unless the car is supported by the wheel at normal ride height. That keeps the rubber bushings at the no-twist state in normal conditions. I did mine with the whole suspension apart, so might be missing something.

For those also changing the upper ball joint, remove it while UCA is installed so it is supported. Don't use a pipe wrench, like the tech did in a FantomWorks episode. There is a special socket for that ball-joint in two sizes - 1963-72 A-body and 1973+ A body and all C-body (B & E same as A?). I have both sockets. If the ball-joint threads got buggered so won't torque down, but is still tight in hole, easiest fix is to tack-weld it at 3 spots. You'll have to grind those off when you change it again in ~250K miles.

 

[72bluNblu]

@72bluNblu , thanks for putting that all together. Now I feel obligated to give it a whirl your way! I don't have a press and was dreading getting the old bushings out but with that homemade tool I'm for sure more confident, especially since I can just turn the UCA around on the ball joint and not totally remove. I won't be racing, just want a stable ride so sounds like the 3.5 Deg + caster will do the trick. $20 for the tool over $400 UCA's sounds more appealing especially since I'm not a racer and already have the offset bushings and new camber bolts. Now the next step is finding time. Will post when finished whenever that may be.

Yeah I actually prefer using that tool vs a press for the UCA’s. It works great for removing and installing the bushings, and there’s very little chance of damaging the UCA’s. With a press you have to be careful with how you support the UCA, it’s pretty easy to tweak the UCA if you’re not careful. Plus with the tool you can do the bushing swap on the car

Not sure you need to loosen the LCA adjusters. I would do one side at a time. Jack up by LCA to keep it close to ride height and remove wheel. If you left the front suspension hanging, the UCA would be tight against their bump stop. Could first support frame rail, then jack LCA up a bit, but not hold all the weight. Main thing is don't fully tighten the UCA bolts unless the car is supported by the wheel at normal ride height. That keeps the rubber bushings at the no-twist state in normal conditions. I did mine with the whole suspension apart, so might be missing something.

For those also changing the upper ball joint, remove it while UCA is installed so it is supported. Don't use a pipe wrench, like the tech did in a FantomWorks episode. There is a special socket for that ball-joint in two sizes - 1963-72 A-body and 1973+ A body and all C-body (B & E same as A?). I have both sockets. If the ball-joint threads got buggered so won't torque down, but is still tight in hole, easiest fix is to tack-weld it at 3 spots. You'll have to grind those off when you change it again in ~250K miles.

I suppose you could leave the suspension loaded for this, but my personal preference is to not have any load on the suspension when I’m pulling anything off of it. Just removes the chance of the suspension unloading/moving when the UCA is removed from the mounts.

With the adjusters unloaded you can put the suspension wherever you want, you can block it up so the UCA isn’t against the upper bump stop.

I also would rather only raise the car once, and keep the stands under the frame rails. Again it just reduces the chance of something moving/shifting with the car in the air.

 

[RogerRamRod]

Watching this to see your update when done. Yeah, working on the car stinks when you want to be out driving it, bet the feeling of "I did it" makes up for that. Besides, the more you do and succeed, the more knowledgeable and comfortable you become with owning a classic car. As you are finding out, less and less places can or will work on these, and the ones that will, often don't get it right or care.
Me, I haven't ever done an alignment. I understand the concepts, but I have my concerns. I plan to take my project to a shop that has some old-timers I've talked to when I take my truck in for inspections. They know they aren't going to be there forever, so they will let me watch & explain whats going on. After the first shot, I plan on doing that task myself from then on.

 

[Killer6]

Fellow A Body Folks... I have a 67 Barracuda and somewhere along the line it was converted to front discs. From installing new ball joints, tie rod ends, calipers, and discs it would seem that the upper control arm and upper/lower ball joints are from an E Body, the brake system from an M Body, and no idea about the spindle. The front wheelbase is slightly wider than the rear (rear is an 8-1/4 no clue what donated it). Not sure if it's an important variable but was originally a slant 6 car and now a 340. It is a power steering car. Ball joints, tie rod ends, and shocks have all been replaced and had it aligned (sorry the alignment report was lost along the way) at a chain tire shop. Tires are new 205/70 14's.

THE PROBLEM... since I've had it I've basically kept it under 55mph. I did notice if I do a sudden lane change it feels like I'm going to lose control. If you wobble the steering a wheel roughly a 1/4" either way it's pretty non-responsive. This last weekend I took it on an hour long cruise on the highway and was terrified at 65-70 mph. The best way to describe it was it felt like if I made any turn at at all (as simple a merging into another lane) I was going to lose control like it was going to twist (best words o can think to describe it). Even worse when hitting bumps or uneven pavement I thought that was the end for me and struggled to keep it in my lane.

In the forum's opinion can this simply be bad alignment? Can this be from the wider front wheelbase? I thought maybe I was the problem as this was the first non-rack and pinion car I've driven but others in my local Mopar club say that's not normal and are very comfortable doing 70mph. Any help or insight would be appreciated! Would love to go to shows a little further from home but no way I'm getting back on the freeway until this gets figured out. Thanks!

I just want to jump in here & be sure to point out that You need to be certain the rear suspension is in good shape, that's cracked/broken front spring-eyes, shot bushings, loose fasteners....also be mindful of the front-to-rear spring-rates & tire pressures, too stiff in the rear & too soft up front will make an otherwise OK car a handfull. Good luck with the offset bushings, I used them & they did what I needed, in My case I maxed the caster & checked the numbers side to side, then installed the bushings to achieve a favorable balance Rt. to Lt.

 

[Joeycurl]

So I always suspected my idler arm being loose or worn. Seems like it would have bearing on the topic being discussed. Finally have a video and hope everyone can let me know if this is normal or worn

Idler arm play.MOV

 

[ACME SS]

lots of good stuff above. I had the same issue with my 71 Dodge Demon and I replaced everything except for the upper and lower control arms themselves. Besides the wandering issue above 60 or so I recently noticed extreme front tire wear despite the fact I had aligned it to -5 camber and 2.2 caster (all I could get out of it). So when I noticed the front tires were so worn in just 400 miles, I checked my alignment only to find it was way way off from those numbers (which stink in my opinion). I tried everything but the best caster I could get was 1 degree on the passenger side. I ended up ordering QA-1 upper and lower control arms and their dynamic adjustable strut rods for around $1100 from Summit. Their control arms are advertised to give like 4 extra degrees of caster if my memory is correct. The original lower control arm was extremely worn on the pivot bushing. I just got the new parts today but its like night and day as far as the slop the original lower control arm had and how nice and stiff the new one is. I think the torsion bar scares a lot of people so few people de-tension and check that but I would take a look at that for sure.

 

[92b]

-5 camber?

 

[KosmicKuda]

The procedure 72bluNblu outlined in post #60 is exactly the way I did mine. (Except I used a length of 1/2" threaded rod) I like the idea of just rotating the UCA around so that you don't have to separate the upper ball joint. That could save a lot of time if you've never done it. There's most likely nobody in that shop who has done an old Mopar before and they could actually do sone damage. You'll do the job correctly and save money.

An impact would make it go pretty quickly but it might be good to gave a buddy come over to give you a hand and provide moral support if you're using hand tools.

I would suggest getting all the parts together and go to it. Make absolutely sure you understand the orientation of the offsets and mark the UCA with a Sharpie showing which way the arrows need to point while it's still assembled on the car. Your goal is to move the UBJ rearward.

The slop in the idler isn't terrible but now would be a good time to change it before you get it aligned again.

 

[67Mungo]

Was going great now I'm stuck. Where my fingers are in the pic... is that part of the control arm or the old bushing rusted in? Can't get the new bushings in so I assume this is the old one? If so any advice how to remove. I've already blasted with penetrating oil. Thanks y'all!

 

[72bluNblu]

Looks like the old bushing shell. You pulled the old bushing guts out of the outer shell.

With the puller tool that probably means you needed a larger washer on the inside to capture the outer shell and pull it out

 

[67Mungo]

Looks like the old bushing shell. You pulled the old bushing guts out of the outer shell.

With the puller tool that probably means you needed a larger washer on the inside to capture the outer shell and pull it out

If I can't get it to budge with the puller even with heat. Hack saw, torch, pliers... those old ones are welded on the control arm with rust. Gave it a shot! Passenger side removal tomorrow then time for new UCA's.

 

[Ironracer]

If I can't get it to budge with the puller even with heat. Hack saw, torch, pliers... those old ones are welded on the control arm with rust. Gave it a shot! Passenger side removal tomorrow then time for new UCA's.

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When I made my press tool I used two different sizes of pipe, to remove and to install

 

[72bluNblu]

If I can't get it to budge with the puller even with heat. Hack saw, torch, pliers... those old ones are welded on the control arm with rust. Gave it a shot! Passenger side removal tomorrow then time for new UCA's.

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You’re pulling the wrong direction. The pipe coupler has to go on the outside. The lip on the outside is part of the outer shell.

 

[Ironracer]

II thought the exact same thing that wide part that comes off I thought the exact same thing that wide part that comes off of

You’re pulling the wrong direction. The pipe coupler has to go on the outside. The lip on the outside is part of the outer shell.

View attachment 1716083517

I thought the same thing. The bushing goes IN to the raised area