Stroker Oiling

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'64 Cuda

'64 Cuda

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I'm accumulating parts for my 408 stroker build & starting to second guess myself :read2: so I thought I'd ask for your thoughts. I'm putting the engine in my 64 Barracuda. It will have a 91 roller cam block & Comp Cams roller cam (230/236*@50 110CL 4* advanced w/510/520 vlift, 1.5 rockers) & their roller rockers. Eddy heads with Hughes 1111 springs & a 6 pack. Mopar Performance electronic ignition/distributor. 3.91 gears & a 4 speed. Probably use my 1 5/8" fenderwell headers & 2 1/2" exhaust.

I originally planned on using a Milodon 360 replacement oil pan (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MIL-30755/ , which I already have #-o) & stock type pickup tube, mainly because it should fit my crossmember with no problems. I've since read in the "Big Inch Smallblocks" book that, at a minimum, you should run a high volume oil pump with a stroker & that tests have shown that volume won't increase unless the pickup tube diameter is increased. So now I'm thinking maybe I should get the Kevko pan & pickup (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330390354005&s), even though I'm about 99% positive I'll have to modify my crossmember to make it fit. Also, I plan to use forged pistons but I'm going back & forth on whether to use a cast or forged crank & I or H beam rods. This will be mainly a fun car but I might take it to the strip once or twice to see what it can do. What do you stroker guys think? :-\"
 
I,m also doing the 408 and bought the Eagle stroker kit with the 4340 crank,H-beam rods and forged pistons for 10.2 compression.I,m also using the Eddy RPM heads with some work done to them.I haven,t picked a cam yet,waiting on head flow #,s.I,m using a Moroso pan #20730.Good Luck!Hope I don,t have to notch K-frame in 66 Dart?(But no biggie if I have to)
 
I don't think you'd have a problem with that pan as far as the K member goes but it's 2" deeper than the Kevko pan & I just KNOW I'd hit the ground with it sooner or later.

Where did you buy your stroker kit?
 
'64 Cuda said:
I don't think you'd have a problem with that pan as far as the K member goes but it's 2" deeper than the Kevko pan & I just KNOW I'd hit the ground with it sooner or later.

Where did you buy your stroker kit?
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My engine builder bought it direct from Eagle,I was wanting to go with a Scat crank,but he said there terrible with returns(not that I,d be returning it?)I guess he just gets better deals through Eagle?It wasn,t cheap!$2K.I got a really good deal on the Eddy RPM,s still in the box,from a local FABO member that wasn,t gonna use them.So there being opened up abit for better flow.:-D

P.S I,ll be running 15 inch skinnies on the front
 
With an early A you might have to notch the K-frame for clearance but from what I've read it's not a huge deal. As far as oiling goes I have read numerous times how a HV pump is useless without a larger pickup so I don't use them any more without using a larger diameter pickup. If you do want to use a stock pan Milodon makes an improved pickup that fits the stock pan. Just look on Summit or Jegs for them and you'll find it.

Forged pistons IMO are a must for a 4" stroke engine cause the piston speed is really high on them. Good I beam rods are sufficient for your average street/strip warrior. I'm using SCAT I beams and their rated at 650 hp. The Eagle I-beams I think are rated to 550 hp. The crank material depends on the HP level. I'm using a cast crank because my 408 is only going to be approx. 450 hp. I think if I was building a 500+ hp engine I'd step up to a forged crank just to be safe. Whatever you do spend the money having it internally balanced. It's worth every penny.
 
It's not stroke, it's rpm and clearances that determine the need for a larger sump and more volume. With that cam choice you will not need anything other than stock parts for the oiling system. Get the clearances right, use 1/2 groove bearings, and make sure the clearances are within factory spec, and you'll be fine. No HV pump or modified pickups needed. Least that's my opinion. Cast crank is fine. Forged pistons are a must. I beams are fine. The last kit I bought was $1300 including shipping without balancing. Cast Eagle crank, SIR rods, SRP forged pistons.
 
64 Cuda,what lifters are you using?also if you plan on running or going faster in the future then buy the 4340 crank and I-beam rods(Scat)you will be better in the long run because if you go faster then you dont have to buy another rotating assy.On the rockers you should go with at least a 1.6 rockers to get more air in that stroker.Oil pumps I have run stock with a high pressure spring and on Main bearings I always run a full groove main to have constant oil to the rods.Oil pan buy one that hasa good oil baffle to control oil on accelaration and decelaration.I personally dont like Eagle because you have to make sure your machinist checks the journals to make sure they were machined correct.
 
"I personally dont like Eagle because you have to make sure your machinist checks the journals to make sure they were machined correct".

That is a MUST regardless of who makes or machines the product.
 
moper said:
"I personally dont like Eagle because you have to make sure your machinist checks the journals to make sure they were machined correct".

That is a MUST regardless of who makes or machines the product.
Click to expand...

I have bought Callies,Scat and Eagle and Eagle was the worst from .005 to .015 taper on the same journal the others where .001-.0015 taper.

IMG_0443.JPG
 
Thanks for the info guys! Keep those cards & letters coming!

I'm going to run stock roller lifters, a new set came with the camshaft I bought. I never planned on turning this thing over 6500 & with the cam profile & 4" stroke I don't really see anything over 6000 as being very likely. As I expected, opinions & advice are varied.

fishy68. Are you talking about this pickup? http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MIL-18650/ I thought about one of those & if I stick with the Milodon pan I have maybe that's what I'll use, even if I use a standard volume oil pump. Back in the day we were told to always use fully grooved main bearings. Now they say to use half or 3/4 grooved. I'll probably have to decide on the kit I want, see what it comes with & then go from there. I can always change bearings if there's a compelling reason for it. On my 273 I ran a stock oil pump & pickup with fully grooved bearings & never had any problems with pressure. Also had cast pistons. It was a street car but it saw 6000 plus frequently & was abused on a regular basis. Fun times.

sbmmustang. .001 to .015 taper on a new crank?!? That's terrible. I can't see any reason for a new crank to have ANY taper.

I'll probably get a forged crank because it'll make me feel better. The 273 had one. I've already got the Comp 1.5 rocker arms so I think I'm going to stick with them. The engine could probably use more cam but, realistically, I'll probably be happy with it no matter how it runs. My last V8 was the 273 & that was about 30 years ago. I'll have trouble staying out of trouble when this car hits the road (If I get that far! LOL) Decisions, decisions.
 
'64 Cuda said:
fishy68. Are you talking about this pickup? http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MIL-18650/
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No. I looked through everything they have listed now and they don't have the one like I bought a couple yrs. back. It looked like this one

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MIL-18345/

But was for a stock depth pan.

Sorry to mis-inform you. I thought they still made it. That one you have the link to looks like a stock replacement type.

I know you don't really want to go through notching the K-frame but the recommendation above to use a pan with good baffles really is a good recommendation for any high perf. engine. It's more work and cost now but nothing in comparison to what would be required if something happens to your new engine.

About the cast pistons vs. forged pistons. The reason forged pistons are a must is because the long stroke creates faster piston speeds. With your 273 the piston speed at 6000 rpm was 3310 ft. per sec. With a 4" stroke crank it's 4000 ft. per sec. so revving the stroker to 6000 is just like revving the 273 to 7300 rpm. Plus the side wall loading is higher with a longer stroke. A cast piston just won't hold up good under those circumstances. JMO

Bearing type and hv vs. std. oil pump is a big debate and probably always will be. I was always taught to run a HV pump and full groove mains also. The full groove mains do have a plus of providing oil to the rods all the time but it's at the expense of taking away strength from the mains. Remember there's more surface area contacting the crank with a half groove main bearing than a full groove bearing. And that extra contact area with a 1/2 groove bearing (3/4 groove also) is the high load area. So it's essentially a trade off. I like the idea of 3/4 groove bearings for the reason they allow more oiling to the rods but don't take away much contact area from the mains. I came to this conclusion after much research and talking to several reputable engine builders, including Moper.
 
fishy68. Something like the pickup you provided the link to was what I was looking for too. Milodon says all of their pickups flow more than stock but I question the 18650 pickup being any better.

I understand all of the arguments for and against the different bearings & the stock vs HV pump. There will probably always be somebody saying each type is the way to go. I'll just have to go with what I feel is best when the time comes. 3/4 grooves maybe, but I bet they're not going to be included with any of the kits. Hey, it's only money, right? As stated earlier, I plan to use forged pistons.

As far as the oil pan goes, the Milodon pan I have has acceleration & (I think, but I'd have to look) deceleration baffles. Just doesn't have any increased capacity. If I keep revs below 6000 & use a stock type pump I'd probably be okay, but I like the idea of extra capacity, just in case. I'll probably buy the Kevko pan & notch my K member. I can probably find a buyer for the Milodon pan & I need to start practicing with my new welder.
 
sbmmustang said:
I have bought Callies,Scat and Eagle and Eagle was the worst from .005 to .015 taper on the same journal the others where .001-.0015 taper.
Click to expand...

So have I. The only ones to be consistently perfect were Callies' Dragonslayers. I don't think you've measured a crank with .005 or .015 taper unless it was finished with a rat tail file. I find that very hard to believe. Typically Scat, MP(Scat), and Eagle all have the same issue with taper. They ALL have it to some degree somewhere. The last MP (made by Scat) had taper from .0005-.0015. The last Eagle had one journal at .0015 taper on a main. The rods were all zero to .0005". I've got another Eagle downstairs I havent measured fully yet, but the one journal i have checked (arbitrary rod) was zero taper. Which is why i said regardless of who it was made/sold by... They need to be neasured carefully.
 
So it's likely I'll need to have work done on the crank no matter who I buy it from?!? A polish & a set of .001 under bearings?
 
For what you intend to do, any crank will do. The better the crank, the higher the cost, the less likely it will need to be fixed. Factory specs for taper are .0005 to .0015 accross a journal. The cheaper cast cranks, regardless of manufacturer should be carefully measured. I've never had to re-grind a new crank. But there are some that were at the .0015 limit. A race engine needs zero taper. A street/strip one can be a little off and be fine. Polishing does not fix a dimensional issue like taper. It only gets the surface finish smooth enough to form a good oil wedge. If taper is that severe it's most likely the journals will need grinding.
 
moper said:
...Polishing does not fix a dimensional issue like taper. It only gets the surface finish smooth enough to form a good oil wedge. If taper is that severe it's most likely the journals will need grinding.
Click to expand...

Stupid me! I knew that! :munky2: Brain Fart! disgust
 
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