Stubborn starting question...

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The DC

The DC

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I have a 1967 Valiant, 273, which started acting up yesterday. I have owned it for a short period of time.

I recently filled it with real gas, after finding a station selling it. It ran so much smoother for a week but yesterday started missing when idling for a short trip, when pausing at lights. Having owned a Duster three decades ago, I initially assumed it was due to the first cold snap that I'd driven her in.

After running an errand in a store, I came out and she would not start.

Her starter turned over smoothly, but no fire.

To limit possibilities, I sprayed starter fluid in her carb to no effect.

I then turned to fire and swapped out the rotor, to no effect, then, since it was cold and raining, the distributer cap, and then the coil. I got a minute of cranking with the coil change before she puttered out, her action quite rough.

Tonight I cleaned the battery contacts while recharging the battery and swapped plugs, getting the same effect of a rough start and a minute of action.

I could tow her home tomorrow to replace the points and condenser, since setting the timing in the parking lot is not preferred, but are there any other possibilities, besides the plug wires and resister I have not thought about?

Thanks!
 
Sounds like a spark issue. I would have started by checking for spark. If no spark check for power at the coil if power at the + bat side then change points.
 
I think Waggin is right on! Did you check the gap on the points? I'd clean them with a points file, then set the gap... drive it home, and then swap out the points system for electronic ignition!

I had an Anglia when I was younger that would do that. It would run fine... then start idling a bit rough (sometimes).. I'd shut it off, go into work or whatever, and then come out and it would not start... I's open the gap a bit on the points and it would fire right up. Points can get burned, corroded, or the follower block wears to the point that the points won't open all the way.
 
Several issues here

First you MUST understand the tricks of Mopar ignition, which can lead you down the wrong road. That is, "IF" you check spark by the temptation.............of jumpering the starter relay while "under the hood," and checking spark, you have not set up "actual conditions."

The ignition switch is in reality several separate switches "in the same can."

Ignition "run" (IGN1) is ONLY present with key in run and NOT in start

The ONLY source of ignition voltage in "start" is the "bypass" circuit, or "IGN2". This is a brown wire, comes off the switch, goes through the bulkhead connector, and to the coil+ side of the ballast

So if the switch, the connector, or the bulkhead connector becomes corroded, you can lose that start voltage.

Next, is the distributor......points must be properly gapped, and if distributor is severely worn, points can become "not" opening or "not" closing because of shaft wear. The points themselves can be corroded to the point (no pun) that they do not conduct electricity. "Weird" problems like the wire feed through the dist. case can be internally broken or shorting to ground.

EASY to check the above.............

Clip your multimeter to the coil+, reach in and twist the key.......should be "same as battery" or 10V minimum

So far as points "not" opening or closing, best way is use a dwell meter "on the starter." You can also hook your multimeter or test lamp to coil neg. Meter should jump up/ down or light should bright dim "flash" as engine cranks.

Checking spark............. Because of the switch issue mentioned, you want to check spark USING THE KEY. So "rig" a test gap so you can see it, and crank using the key. Don't forget the coil wire........they can go bad internally.

Last is a tossup. You MUST have a good condenser (capacitor.) "New" does not mean "working."

And.......coils can fail. They can become intermittent, quitting when hot, or quit when they "feel" like it, or just quit.
 
69B-Cuda said:
I think Waggin is right on! Did you check the gap on the points? I'd clean them with a points file, then set the gap... drive it home, and then swap out the points system for electronic ignition!

I had an Anglia when I was younger that would do that. It would run fine... then start idling a bit rough (sometimes).. I'd shut it off, go into work or whatever, and then come out and it would not start... I's open the gap a bit on the points and it would fire right up. Points can get burned, corroded, or the follower block wears to the point that the points won't open all the way.
Click to expand...

I have been seriously thinking about converting over to electronic, especially as I treat her like a daily driver.

I did check the gap, only a little off, and did replace the plugs after swapping out the rotor button.
 
67Dart273 said:
Several issues here

First you MUST understand the tricks of Mopar ignition, which can lead you down the wrong road. That is, "IF" you check spark by the temptation.............of jumpering the starter relay while "under the hood," and checking spark, you have not set up "actual conditions."

The ignition switch is in reality several separate switches "in the same can."

Ignition "run" (IGN1) is ONLY present with key in run and NOT in start

The ONLY source of ignition voltage in "start" is the "bypass" circuit, or "IGN2". This is a brown wire, comes off the switch, goes through the bulkhead connector, and to the coil+ side of the ballast

So if the switch, the connector, or the bulkhead connector becomes corroded, you can lose that start voltage.

Next, is the distributor......points must be properly gapped, and if distributor is severely worn, points can become "not" opening or "not" closing because of shaft wear. The points themselves can be corroded to the point (no pun) that they do not conduct electricity. "Weird" problems like the wire feed through the dist. case can be internally broken or shorting to ground.

EASY to check the above.............

Clip your multimeter to the coil+, reach in and twist the key.......should be "same as battery" or 10V minimum

So far as points "not" opening or closing, best way is use a dwell meter "on the starter." You can also hook your multimeter or test lamp to coil neg. Meter should jump up/ down or light should bright dim "flash" as engine cranks.

Checking spark............. Because of the switch issue mentioned, you want to check spark USING THE KEY. So "rig" a test gap so you can see it, and crank using the key. Don't forget the coil wire........they can go bad internally.

Last is a tossup. You MUST have a good condenser (capacitor.) "New" does not mean "working."

And.......coils can fail. They can become intermittent, quitting when hot, or quit when they "feel" like it, or just quit.
Click to expand...



I'll go back out and check your suggestions.

I did replace the coil, but like you said about the condenser, that is no proof of "working."

Thanks; I'll check all your suggestions. :salute:

The DC
 
I wouldn't spend too much time fooling with points. You would get better driveability, mileage, and simplified maintenance with electronic ignition. About $50 on ebay for a new distributor w/ HEI module for your 273, and lose the ballast problems forever. One tow would cost you that much. Also, insure that your wiring from the ignition switch thru the bulkhead is good.
 
BillGrissom said:
I wouldn't spend too much time fooling with points. You would get better driveability, mileage, and simplified maintenance with electronic ignition. About $50 on ebay for a new distributor w/ HEI module for your 273, and lose the ballast problems forever. One tow would cost you that much. Also, insure that your wiring from the ignition switch thru the bulkhead is good.
Click to expand...

You've convinced me after the cold, East coast adjustment last night!

What's the best conversion kit out there?
 
I would double the switching over to the electronic ignition system! I have done it on both of my 66 and now 65 Formula S Barracuda's! It makes life so much simpler and much more consistent! Mine runs great and its a simple kit you get from Mopar and install yourself in an hour or so! It will start right up and run great! Orange box for street use is the main one for daily driving. The Points and condenser belong in the show cars that get towed into show and back home. Daily driver need electronic set up for consistency and reliance, no more stuck on the side of the road....

65Cudalover
 
The DC said:
What's the best conversion kit out there?
Click to expand...
Search "ready-to-run distributor" on ebay and here. I bought one from skip white performance for $45 a few years ago (small block), plus his $20 e-core coil. Several other sellers. Mostly good reviews in posts here. Just a few wires to hookup since the module is integral to the distributor. Some fuss about buying anything made in China, but they appear well-made and the price is fantastic. Only problem, they don't make a slant 6 version.

Alternatives that use your existing points distributor are Pertronix Ignitor (II or III, $100 or $120) or Crane Cams XR700. The later is outdated (requires ballast), but you can sometimes get for $20 on ebay. You can also buy a HEI parts from TrailBeast here ($99) but must also get an electronic distributor (72+). Others like MSD or DUI costs $300+, and more for racing.
 
I've narrowed the issue down to the points and a worn cam that may be causing the points to fire less effectively. The hex is rounded badly.

Your advise about switching over to EI makes sense, as I'd have to replace the distributor anyway at this point.

I'm going to be hunting for a reasonable price for both the 273 v-8 and the slant 6 over the holidays, and weather permitting, be bale to tell you that the ladies are both running more smoothly!

Thanks for the advice and good suggestions...
 
Go with either an MSD billet distributor or HEI conversion. Davis Unified Ignition (or DUI) make some good units. I would not go the crap-tronix route. I have had too many people come back when the module over heats and burns out. It's susceptible to heat soak. Same with their flame thrower coils. They either go intermittent or just up and quit.
From Mopars to vintage volkswagens, I've had issues with the drop in modules and coils across the board with per tronix. I try and push either MSD or DUI distributors. There are several others out there as well just check out summit racing and their available products. Be careful with eBay as MSD and others seem to have a lot of counterfeits out there lately and you can't be sure of what your actually getting under the MSD looking case.............
 
Not every per-tronix unit fails, but when you work on a lot of cars and change out a lot of them the failure rate is too high. It angers people and is a hassle to always be contacting them for more replacements. By all means if you get a good one Great! Keep it as you are one of the lucky ones.
 
DC, i got a slant E-dizzy if you need it, probably throw in the ecu too. Im going EDIS.....
 
TheMoparMan said:
Not every per-tronix unit fails, but when you work on a lot of cars and change out a lot of them the failure rate is too high. It angers people and is a hassle to always be contacting them for more replacements. By all means if you get a good one Great! Keep it as you are one of the lucky ones.
Click to expand...

This is great feedback. Thanks!!



I'm wanting less headaches:banghead:; not more!

What are you best recommended and what vendor do you prefer?
 
You should grab the above offered elec distributor and use one of my HEI conversion kits.
The one HUGE drawaback to almost all of the aftermarket ignitions out there is that if something goes out you have to wait for a new one.
You can get replacement parts for my HEI ignitions over the counter, and in stock at any parts store 7 days a week and plug it in.

There are quite a few members here running my systems right now, and they are highly reliable as any of the owners can tell you.
Personally, I havn't had a no start situation in almost two years of daily driving.

They are not 99.00 any longer though, they are 149.95 and worth every penny.

They can be purchased here www.classichei.com
 
I bought one of trailbeast's dizzy. I recommend it! Stand up guy as well.
 
FJ5 said:
I bought one of trailbeast's dizzy. I recommend it! Stand up guy as well.
Click to expand...

Thank you, but I think you mean you got the ignition from me.
Or did you get the whole setup from 805Moparkid with the distributor and my ignition system?
 
TrailBeast said:
You should grab the above offered elec distributor and use one of my HEI conversion kits.
The one HUGE drawaback to almost all of the aftermarket ignitions out there is that if something goes out you have to wait for a new one.
You can get replacement parts for my HEI ignitions over the counter, and in stock at any parts store 7 days a week and plug it in.

There are quite a few members here running my systems right now, and they are highly reliable as any of the owners can tell you.
Personally, I havn't had a no start situation in almost two years of daily driving.

They are not 99.00 any longer though, they are 149.95 and worth every penny.

They can be purchased here www.classichei.com
Click to expand...

Is yours a fit to distributor kit or a plug in play, all in one with a new distributor mount?

Thanks!
 
Mine uses only the original electronic distributor and mounts outside it on the firewall or fender usually, but it can also go under the dash so there is only the wires from the distributor and the coil wire visible under the hood.
They are full true HEI using the newer 8 pin ECU instead of the old 4 pin style, and are capable of controlling timing for EFI with Holley and Megasquirt systems.
They work great and you can get replacement parts anywhere on any day of the week in stock.
The parts are also really easy to change if ever needed, as they are plug in with weatherpack connectors.
The kit comes with everything you need for changing to HEI.

As far as reliability, I don't know because no one has ever had one fail. :)
You can chk it out here www.classichei.com
 
The DC said:
... fit to distributor kit or a plug in play, all in one with a new distributor mount?
Thanks!
Click to expand...
I suggest you do more reading first, including those in this post, since I already mentioned you would need an electronic distributor for TrailBeast kit, which adds cost. Many people get the same ignition parts cheap off an 85-95 GM V-8 truck (I did) and there are posts explaining that. I think you should at least look at the $45 HEI distributor on ebay before deciding (and read the post about it here).
 
BillGrissom said:
I suggest you do more reading first, including those in this post, since I already mentioned you would need an electronic distributor for TrailBeast kit, which adds cost. Many people get the same ignition parts cheap off an 85-95 GM V-8 truck (I did) and there are posts explaining that. I think you should at least look at the $45 HEI distributor on ebay before deciding (and read the post about it here).
Click to expand...



Thanks! I'll research more.

Since then static set the timing, replacing points & condenser, but she's running real rough; very rich. There was some heavy exhaust and the pavement blackened under the pipes.

I'm wondering if I had two problems at the same time; a problem carburetor and the timing went off, leading to the sudden failure. Given I have swapped out points, plugs, condenser, plug wires, distributor cap, coil, and checked the timing and found it holding near tap center, I'm leaning toward buying or rebuilding my carb.

I checked the fuel line and there was adequate pressure before and after the filter, so I think I'm down to a rebuild replacement? Sound about right?

Its a Carter #1781, two barrel for a 273.

Any suggestions on a replacement? I've been warned against the AutoZone model, for being unreliable out of the box, and I checked with Holly and they don't carry it anymore, even in rebuild.

Thanks!
 
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