Stupid Distributor Questions

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There is a difference between distributor timing and phasing. Timing is where your spark occurs relative to crankshaft position. We adjust this by turning the distributor in the block until the desired static or baseline advance is reached. Phasing is where the spark occurs relative to the contacts in the cap. I've never had a problem with a factory Mopar distributor, but anything is possible.

Generally an out of phase condition is due to the distributor having been assembled incorrectly, stuck advance weights, or something else being a tooth or two off and "fudged back in". If you have everything lined up correctly, this probably isn't the problem, but anything is possible. To verify phasing you end up having to sacrifice a distributor cap (cut a hole in the top) and use the timing light to look at where the rotor actually is relative to the cap with the engine running.

With the crank at TDC #1, the slot in the distributor drive shaft should point directly at the left-front intake manifold bolt (#9 in the torque sequence).

Also, since you are running points, make sure you set the gap with a dwell meter. The factory setting of .020 should get you close assuming no wear in the dist, but dwell is much more accurate.
 
I have the same car. 69 Swinger 340/727 with the original AVS. I had similar problems. Check the following:

1. Is there any side to side movement of the distributor shaft while installed in the car? If so, this will cause erratic point gaps and make the car run horribly. The Bronze distributor bushing may need to be replaced. I had mine replaced when the motor was rebuilt. I do not know if it is possible to do this with the engine in the car.This was the case on my 72 Satellite 318 many years ago. An electonic conversion stopped the problem. I currently have the electronic conversion in my Dart, from Summit racing. Works great.

2. My car pings on 87, Use 93 octane for best results.

3. I had a bad stumble off the line after rebuidling the carb. The accelerator pump height on the chart with the rebuild kit was too low. Keep the pump rod in the middle hole, but slowly straighten it to raise the pump height. Some trial and error has eliminated the stumble. Sorry, I do not know the new pump rod height off hand.

Hope this helps. PM me if you need help with this.
 
C130, issues with phasing are fairly common. I believe it was David Freighburger that marketed/markets a reluctor with 6 or 8 slots for the alignment pin. I've also had one MSD pro billet that had phasing issues and the car wouldnt idle well. I had to modify the cap to center it on the post. The best wayt to check pahsing is to drill the cap so you can illuminate the rotor as it hits the #1 terminal. Check it with a timing light. It's also common for the oil pump drive to be re-used, and the worn drive eats the new bushing pretty quickly, creating slop and erratic timing. Those bushing can be changed in the car with the right tool, or the one I made...lol.
 
waggin said:
On the contrary,there are several positions that you can install the distributor intermidiate shaft and then move the wires around and it will work properly but there is also several positions where it will NOT work properly,the fsm shows it in a certain position but does not explain "why" the "why is be cause if you bring the piston to tdc on the compression stroke, and turn the distributor to where it is just starting to open the points or approach the pickup on electronic ignition setups,what do you do if when you place the rotor on and then the cap into place and check it and the rotor is halfway between two electrodes???? guess what....you have to turn the intermidiate shaft a tooth so that all three are in time with each other,I just explained the basics of having the piston at t.d.c. the points just starting to open and checking one lil' thing to make sure.because of what?????experience. it happens on dodge chevy and ford,you can do your own lil' experiment on your vehicle or on an old engine laying around the shop,I didn't say anything contrary to what anyone else was saying.I just stated the fact that if the rotor button is between two electrodes on the distributor cap when you install it that you have to turn the intermidiate shaft back or forward 1 tooth so that they are aligned properly,just try it before you call me an idiot,I've been doing this for 27 years now and I don't own any fsm's nor am I a dealership mechanic.I offered up some credible advice to help a fellow member.I didn't ask to get shoved under the bus.you should do the experiment and you will see a way to make sure your engines fire to life and make horesepower right out of the box,everytime!
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You MUST be related to a guy with a CHEBBY....They're ALWAYS a TOOTH OFF....Just turn the dang distributor around a 1/8 of a turn and you'll have done the SAME thing as moving the Int Shaft....
You Have to be FOS..
If ya need a Distributor kit with the Lighter Springs Set-up already I have a Kit ready.I made it up for one of my buddies CArs and he went with the Factory Dual Point for his AAR...

SS
 
if the points are about to open and you turn the distributor housing the points are not about to open any more are they?alredy open,thats the problem with the throw the distributor in any old way theory.tooo many trying to tell me I'm wrong and no one saying maybe,look at me, what could I know?try the test I described before you assume the distributor can go in any way you put it,that is an assumption,the factory service manuals could be wrong but trust me on this one,from experience I know that what I said is true,what would I have to gain by saying that?no gain for me if i'm right or if I'm wrong,gain for you if I'm Right though:cheers:.thats my story and I'm sticking to it!
340sFastback said:
If the rotor is in between two electrodes at TDC you loosen the distributor hold down clamp, turn the distributor, and now its lined up. What am I missing?
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Waggin-
I think you're a genius!
It's too late for me to check that shaft/gear, but I'll definately check it out before Moper drives all the way down here.
If it is off a tooth, would this make the car pop through the carb because the timing is off, even though the timing light is firing at the correct time, creating a false reading...????? Especially if it is off one tooth ADVANCED??
Thank You for your valuable input, sir.

George
 
George R said:
Waggin-
I think you're a genius!
It's too late for me to check that shaft/gear, but I'll definately check it out before Moper drives all the way down here.
If it is off a tooth, would this make the car pop through the carb because the timing is off, even though the timing light is firing at the correct time, creating a false reading...????? Especially if it is off one tooth ADVANCED??
Thank You for your valuable input, sir.

George
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Yup. Some were I have a picture that shows how to line it up. I'll try and find it.
 
Waggin, I agree the basic premise of yours is right... However, I think there is a much better way to get the end result than simply lining up enough things so it works right. I've found more issues from people doing just what you say, and the next guy getting totally lost by it....lol. It's just as simple for me to get the piston of the right cylinder in the right spot, and then installing the parts the way the engineers intended. Many times doing it non-standard does lead to issues with room for vacuum can swing and simple confusion by the ignorant "next guy". It still will run your way, you are right. Interstingly, I also do not owna single factory service manual. I never have...lol
 
I just brought the engine to TDC on #1, and the tip of the rotor is PAST the #1 tower on the cap. I can simply rotate the distributor body until it lines up with the #1 tower, but the position of the points changes the firing time if this is done. Based on what I can see here, the gear would need to be turned a tooth counterclockwise in order for the rotor tip and the #1 tower to be in line. Having said that, the way it is right now would make the timing LATE, which would also cause the car to stumble, pop through the carb, as well as make the tips of the plugs be white, or colorless.
If this is all that is wrong with this POS..........

George
 
George,

Two things...

1. If you set your timing and the rotor points past the terminal, rotating the distributor will only change the timing. You could probably retard it until the problem goes away, but you'll feel a drop in torque. My guess is that if the rotor points past #1 terminal when static timing you'll have an issue because at high RPM mechanical advance will have the rotor close enough to the following cylinders contact (#8 in this case) that you may have crossfire. To static time you need a test lamp... set crankshaft to the point where you want the spark to occur... connect a test lamp between the coil and distributor primary wire... turn ignition switch on... retard distributor until light comes on... advance until light just goes out... tighten clamp. If your rotor is well past the contact in the cap after doing this, you may have a problem.

2. What's your manifold vacuum like? If it is steady, press on. If it pulsates rhythmically, you have a leaking intake valve. The classic cause of popping through the carb. If this is the case, you can quit messing with the carb.
 
George another member stated another important issue that should be checked,the distributor intermediate shaft has a bushing that is pressed into the block that you need to check when you pull the intermidiate shaft out,so pull the shaft all the way out so you can look down in there at it,and I'm glad that the information was helpful,thats the only reason I posted,you may still have a lean condition to address after that gets fixed,just stick to the basics.and yes I line up the distributor rotor to point to # 1 cylinder
 
Thats the way I do it to,and I don't own any manuals either Lol,I have had occasion to look at them on some of the newer stuff though but yes I line it up to point to the #1 cylinder also.thank's for your input,this sticking to the basics has always been a big help thru the years,I guess it's hard to explain without being person to person and a motor in front of us Lol.was just sharing what I have learned for all to share.:cheers:
moper said:
Waggin, I agree the basic premise of yours is right... However, I think there is a much better way to get the end result than simply lining up enough things so it works right. I've found more issues from people doing just what you say, and the next guy getting totally lost by it....lol. It's just as simple for me to get the piston of the right cylinder in the right spot, and then installing the parts the way the engineers intended. Many times doing it non-standard does lead to issues with room for vacuum can swing and simple confusion by the ignorant "next guy". It still will run your way, you are right. Interstingly, I also do not owna single factory service manual. I never have...lol
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C130 Chief said:
George,

Two things...

1. If you set your timing and the rotor points past the terminal, rotating the distributor will only change the timing. You could probably retard it until the problem goes away, but you'll feel a drop in torque. My guess is that if the rotor points past #1 terminal when static timing you'll have an issue because at high RPM mechanical advance will have the rotor close enough to the following cylinders contact (#8 in this case) that you may have crossfire. To static time you need a test lamp... set crankshaft to the point where you want the spark to occur... connect a test lamp between the coil and distributor primary wire... turn ignition switch on... retard distributor until light comes on... advance until light just goes out... tighten clamp. If your rotor is well past the contact in the cap after doing this, you may have a problem.

2. What's your manifold vacuum like? If it is steady, press on. If it pulsates rhythmically, you have a leaking intake valve. The classic cause of popping through the carb. If this is the case, you can quit messing with the carb.
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I have a test light, and will set it up the way you described.
The vacuum at idle is 17", steady as a rock.
waggin said:
George another member stated another important issue that should be checked,the distributor intermediate shaft has a bushing that is pressed into the block that you need to check when you pull the intermidiate shaft out,so pull the shaft all the way out so you can look down in there at it,and I'm glad that the information was helpful,thats the only reason I posted,you may still have a lean condition to address after that gets fixed,just stick to the basics.and yes I line up the distributor rotor to point to # 1 cylinder
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I'll check the bushing, but how can you tell if it is worn simply by looking at it?
Also, how the heck do you get the intermediate shaft out of the engine with the intake on??

George
 
George R said:
I have a test light, and will set it up the way you described.
The vacuum at idle is 17", steady as a rock.

I'll check the bushing, but how can you tell if it is worn simply by looking at it?
Also, how the heck do you get the intermediate shaft out of the engine with the intake on??

George
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George, I chimed in a while ago and I'm sorry to see that it is not running well, YET!!! I am following along with interest and can offer only my recent experience with my change of distributors. I had a new electronic distributor from a friend and the reluctor went out so I bought the entire Mopar kit and replaced the distributor. When I put in the new distributor, the intermediate shaft had to be turned back 2 teeth to get everything back in line and have the adjustment sweep available to time it. To take out the shaft, I put a screwdriver in the slot of the shaft and turned it counterclockwise until the gear disengaged the continued to spin it swiftly and it came right up. Remember to note the location of the slot as it came out, but in your case when it goes back in move it one or maybe 2 teeth back. I agree with a lot of the information of all of the providers, but i will say that if you are considering a change to electronic ignition, I would spend the $219.00 for the Mopar performance kit and make the change, lean conditions or not. It will eliminate any question about the ignition issues, and leave you with the knowledge that it is correct when you diagnose the carb issues. It sounds like you are trying to keep the car as correct as possible, but the non-correct items in the Mopar kit are easily concealed to retain the stock look. The distributor is close out of the box, and yes it should be "dialed in", but it is very close and should eliminate any doubts in regards to what the ignition is adding to your probem. You gotta get it lined up though, and that sounds like your initial problem to me. I hope to hear some good news from this thread soon, and hope you don't get too frustrated to continue. Be patient and it will come around, step by step. Good luck, Geof
 
Yes turning it counter clockwise will walk it right up but then to pull it all the way out is another issue. A magnet will work or two screw drivers wedge in the middle slot can be used to pull it out.
 
Waggins right only about making it simpler by putting the dist gear and dist in the factory way, other wise you just turn the distributor to obtain the timing desired if a tooth off.
 
Another trick to get the drive out is a piece of metal clothes hanger wire, bent in a U, with a 90° bend on each "leg". It's small enough to be bent on an angle and fit in the teeth of the gear... So being careful, you can fish it out in one try. To see if the bushing or drive is bad, take a screw drive with no distributor in place, and try t wiggle the drive in the block side to side, in the direction 90° from the cam centerline. Rotating a hair is ok, no lateral movement is allowed. If you have any, pull it and replace the drive and bushing. The new bushing will need burnishing once it's installed to properly size it for the drive.
 
3404spdvaliant said:
Waggins right only about making it simpler by putting the dist gear and dist in the factory way, other wise you just turn the distributor to obtain the timing desired if a tooth off.
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I'll just let him have HIS DREAM.....

I've only worked on Mopars for a few DOZEN years....I have been Wrong before But I Wasn't the one that wanted to get married that time anyway.....
How Old Am I?!I Remember when the DEAD SEA was Only SICK...


SS
 
I understand rotor to points/pickup phasing in that when the reluctor passes by the pickup, the rotor must be pointing at #1. But if the distributor is out of phase, it needs to be disassembled and reassembled correctly otherwise nothing will fix it.
 
Well, for what it's worth, I rotated the distributor intermediate shaft 1 tooth counterclockwise, and dropped the distributor back in the car. No more pop through the intake, idle is smooth as well. I set the initial timing at 16º BTDC, and took it for a ride. It still pings when you put your foot down, and there is a slight hesitation from a dead stop, but other than that it runs very well now. I think if I fill up with high octane fuel the ping will improve. If it doesn't I'll mess with the advance springs to make it come in a little later. Maybe I can eliminate the hesitation with the idle mixture screws or the accelerator pump?
I couldn't check the total timing because I couldn't operate the dial on the timing light while holding the light on the damper AND holding the throttle open. Maybe on Friday I'll have my wife help out.

What do you guys think??

George
 
Sounds good. Put the highest octane gas in you can get. I always ran 93 octane in my stock 340. The lower grade fuel would always ping. I'd jet that carb up because stock those carbs are WAY too lean. What is your total timing?
 
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