Taking the plunge

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danielb927

danielb927

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Guys, I think I'm going to just suck it up and re-wire my car. I put in a new ignition switch to solve my starting problems and things are just weird. I tested the switch today, here's what I found (seems to work to me)

Start wire gets power in Start position only
Accessory wire gets power in Accessory or Run positions.
Ignition 1 gets power in Run and Start
Ignition 2 gets power in Start only

What's the difference between ignition 1 and 2?

Anyways, since the starter seems fine, at least with regards to the start wire, and the car cranks in the run position but only when the fuse for the gauges is installed, I have determined that the wiring is fubar. So, I'm thinking I am going to buy one of the EZ-wiring 12 or 21 circuit kits and re-wire the whole car. It sounded like overkill to me at first, but the more I try to troubleshoot and fight the fact that the wires are old, hard, and it is nearly impossible to recognize the colors anymore, the more I'd like to start fresh just so I know what everything is, where it goes, etc...

So, has anyone ever done this before? Is there anything I need to be aware of beyond what will be in the instructions with the kit? Mostly what I'm concerned about is getting all the wires in the engine compartment hooked up right. Lights and stuff should be no problem, I just want to make sure I know what the wires in the engine compartment are going to with regards to ignition. Once I get the ball rolling on this, I'll probably have a more specific list of questions.
 
Ignition 2 sends a higher voltage to the coil for cranking only.
That part is all good. "Fuse for gauges" lost me. Ther's not a fuse spacificly for the gauges.

Aftermarket wiring kits are ez at engine and such. The puzzles with them are wipers, heater, and the like. It wont replace your gauges and will not fix your problem with that circuit.
 
RedFish said:
Aftermarket wiring kits are ez at engine and such. The puzzles with them are wipers, heater, and the like. It wont replace your gauges and will not fix your problem with that circuit.
Click to expand...

I don't think it has anything to do with the gauges themselves. When I put the new ignition switch in, the fuse does not blow anymore. I'm sure it goes to other things besides the gauge cluster, but I know it at least goes to that because when that fuse blows the gauges are dead. I think there must just be a crossed wire somewhere, since it cranks constantly now in run. I suppose if i knew where the ignition wire runs, I might try to find the crossed wires.

My concern is that if it's old and crusty wiring, it's going to have more problems down the road. But I think i will try to find this problem first. The ignition wire really shouldn't do much other than go straight from the ignition switch to the starter relay, should it?
 
I replaced the heater core first. Then I discovered that the big wire from battery to starter was shorting out on the steering shaft, so I changed that wire, the wire from the starter relay to solenoid, and the battery terminal came with that of course. I also changed starter relay.

So I went to start it and I got no crank and no click. I also had a fuse in the fuse box blow every time the car was turned to run, and the gauges and parking brake/oil pressure lights were dead. Ammeter works fine (on a separate circuit). It had spark and ignition was fine, turn signals lights all worked fine. I could start it by bypassing the starter totally or just by wiring the positive battery to the switched side of the relay (yellow wire).

So I put in a new ignition switch. I've tested it and it works. Now I have the following condition:

With the fuse that used to blow every time I turned the key OUT:

No crank, no click, no gauges.

With that fuse in:

Fuse does not blow
Gauges/lights work
Starter cranks in both RUN and START positions
 
Lets try some very basic tests.. Pull the yellow wire off of the startwe relay. Put a test light between it and ground. With the fuse in question removed,
turn the key to start and verify test light and yellow wire all conneted.
Allow the switch to rest in run position and verify test light is now off.
Now lets connect that fuse to its holders and see if the test light comes on. If is does not then I'll scratch my head while you rewire the whole car.
If the test light does come on your goal will be to make it go off.
You will find that yellow wire has broken insulation somewhere and touching another wire that is on your fused circuit. That yellow wire runs from keyed switch, to bulkhead connector and out to the relay / test light .
On some models there was a seat belt safety interlock that would interupt the start signal. I dont recall if it was on the yellow wire side of the relay or the brown wire side. Your car may not even have this crap. Just thought it worth mentioning. Good luck . I'll be back
 
^ haha beat me to it (ck'd in late)
gospel there.

post findings:-D
 
Okay guys, I don't have a test light but I have a multimeter so I did some tests today.

With that fuse in, there is continuity between the positive battery post and the yellow wire @ starter relay with the key in ON. So, obviously there is a crossed wire somewhere that is allowing current to go to the start circuit even when the key is not in start. There is no continuity with the firewall plug disconnected, so I think the broken wire must be somewhere under the dash (before the firewall). My guess is that it's a completely broken wire and that's why it ONLY starts when that fuse is in. If that fuse is out, it won't crank even with the key in start.

So, time to find the crossed wires i guess! I don't think I can take the top off of the dash, I will take the gauge cluster out and see if that gives me a good enough view between that and laying on the floor of the car looking up!
 
With that fuse out it wont start or wont turn over ? Either way it doesn't make sense. What model car is this ?
Get a test light ! I wouldn't trade my 12V test light for 100 multimeters.
 
Correct. With fuse out it doesn't crank at all. With fuse in it cranks in both RUN and START.

It's a Duster (73), used to be a 6-cyl (225) now it has a 360.
 
Did you ever had the car running? Or did you buy the car and now are trying to get it running?
Was the car running before the swap to a 360?
 
Sorry all, I was on vacation.

The car was running when I bought it. This was around 2 months ago. It started and ran fine. It already had the 360 in it.

I changed heater core and positive battery cable which had shorted out on the steering shaft and was nearly melted through. I also changed the starter switch.

Now it will crank in Run and Start with that fuse in, and won't crank in any key position with the fuse out.
 
Took the gauge cluster out today. Problem seems to be found (I hope!). I found a spot with some crossed wires. One is thick and yellow (start) one is thick and brown (one of the ignitions?) and one is blue with a white tracer (gauge cluster). Seems like it involves all the messed up circuits to me! I cut out the bad sections, will put in new wires (probably with crimped connectors instead of trying to solder in the car, which i'm bad at). Hopefully this was it!
 
danielb927 said:
Took the gauge cluster out today. Problem seems to be found (I hope!). I found a spot with some crossed wires. One is thick and yellow (start) one is thick and brown (one of the ignitions?) and one is blue with a white tracer (gauge cluster). Seems like it involves all the messed up circuits to me! I cut out the bad sections, will put in new wires (probably with crimped connectors instead of trying to solder in the car, which i'm bad at). Hopefully this was it!
Click to expand...

Yep, sure sounds like you found the problem. Good luck
 
About splicing wires. I really dislike the butt connectors. I buy stuff like ring terminals and remove insulaters if present, then clip the barrel off. Rub away sharp cut edges. Insert one wire from each end and crimp. Remebering to slip a one inch length of heatshrink tubing on one of the wires before crimping is the tough part for the novice. Just my .02
 
RedFish said:
About splicing wires. I really dislike the butt connectors. I buy stuff like ring terminals and remove insulaters if present, then clip the barrel off. Rub away sharp cut edges. Insert one wire from each end and crimp. Remebering to slip a one inch length of heatshrink tubing on one of the wires before crimping is the tough part for the novice. Just my .02
Click to expand...

Thanks. Any reason you don't like butt connectors?
 
danielb927 said:
Thanks. Any reason you don't like butt connectors?
Click to expand...

The quality of the connection can't be seen. I prefer to see the wires overlapped and properly crimped. Besides, if you look at certain splices in your factory harness you'll find that pretty much how they did it.
Ok they used copper barrels and solder too but they used electric tape and not heatshrink . :Þ
 
Okay. I used your suggestion, fixed it up, taped over the contacts. And it worked! With that fuse out, it cranks fine.

So, I put the fuse in. Gauges came on, fuse did not blow, so that's good. Now I turned the key to crank it and I got a click but no cranking. Tried it again, same thing. Tried it a third time, no click.

Took the fuse back out and it cranks fine again.

So it's progress! I think I'm really close
 
Wierd : head scratching : When the ignition switch is turned to on a full row of fuse slots become hot. That one blowing fuse may have other things on it than just the instrument panel. I kinda wonder if the reverse lights are on that fuse. Those wires are routed with the brown ground wire to the neutral safety switch. That brown wire can prevent the relay "click" just as easy as the yellow relay positive wire can. A wiring diagram would be a great help.
Otherwise you would need to leave that fuse out and hunt anything and everything that doesn't get power. Hang in there , you'll whip it. I got faith in you :)
 
Yep, at least I can drive it around again! I'm guessing there is just another short somewhere up there behind the dash again, I know that fuse is blue wires with white tracers and there are a few of them in there, so that's where I'm looking.
 
Here's my question now: I don't see any glaring faults in the wiring containing the start wire and the wires out of the fuse in question. Is it possible that the battery has been drained from my grounded attempts at starting and so it only has enough juice to crank when the gauges are disconnected? It doesn't seem like they would draw enough juice for this but I figured I'd ask. The battery read about 12.6 volts when disconnected which seems normal.
 
Okay, so i looked over all the wires attached to the fused circuit that is affecting whether it starts or not and didn't see any breaks or shorts. So, I put it back together to start it and i get click but no crank. Try it again and get nothing. Disconnected the battery, connected again, click but no crank again. This was with the fuse out. Sounds like maybe my battery needs to be charged?
 
Well, thank you for your help everyone it looks like everything is good to go. I trickle charged, cleaned the negative battery post, and put the old ignition switch back in and it cranked and started to catch (didn't actually start it yet). So I think all my problems are fixed! The only problem seems to have been that screw on top of the gauge cluster that got screwed into the wiring harness. I hate electrical problems because I had to tear the whole interior apart and everything just to find one little problem! But, now that it's fixed, I will be putting everything back together and ready to roll!

Hard to believe it has been over a month since she was last driveable. The time really flies by trying to fix things, doesn't it?

Anyways, a big thanks to everyone who posted advice! This was my first major repair/troubleshooting job on the car.
 
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