The man wants MORE caster. How about this idea?

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Kern Dog

Kern Dog

Build your car to handle.
FABO Gold Member
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Granite Bay CA
Okay, feel free to let me have it if you think that this is a bad idea but.....
To those that want their cars to handle better, aligning the car to have more caster really helps.
There are numerous ways to get there, some are more effective than others. You can crack open the wallet and buy aftermarket stuff. The Hotchkis stuff seems to be almost infinitely adjustable but holeeeee crap they are expensive.

UCA Hot.png


Even the Firm Feel is spendy...

UCA FF.png


With the Firm feel, you're at the mercy of whatever added caster they engineer in. That is fine but still...$450?

FABO sponsor PST doesn't list one for the A body.
If you like your stock stamped steel arms, you're limited to using the Moog K-7103 offset bushings:

Moog offset.jpg



They do work, I have them in my '70 Charger. I must be blessed though because even with standard bushings, this car was able to get over 3 degrees of caster. Now with the bushings, I was able to get 5 degrees on one side, 5.5 on the other. This has to be a case of an absolute positive tolerance stack up!
Okay, back to the point. If you're always looking to do more with less and can weld....
How about this?
How about cutting the UCA on the forward leg, spread it 1/4" and welding in another section?

UCA 23 - Copy.jpeg


Properly welded, it wouldn't fail. The slight change in angle will affect the rear bushing slightly but not enough to matter. This can be done for next to nothing. The 1/4" piece sectioned in could come from small ball joint UCAs that are not as valuable to some people. By welding in an extension, you'd still be able to use any type of bushing, offset or stock so there would still be the same range of adjustment.
Opinions?
 
Last edited:
That is strange. They show up for me. This is with this computer.
I just tried my phone. The pictures come through here too.
 
Last edited:
The QA1 upper arms are much more affordable.
 
Kern Dog said:
That is strange. They show up for me. This is with this computer.
I just tried my phone. The pictures come through here too.
Click to expand...
And of course, NOW your original attachments show up. lol
 
Kern Dog said:
Okay, feel free to let me have it if you think that this is a bad idea but.....
To those that want their cars to handle better, aligning the car to have more caster really helps.
There are numerous ways to get there, some are more effective than others. You can crack open the wallet and buy aftermarket stuff. The Hotchkis stuff seems to be almost infinitely adjustable but holeeeee crap they are expensive.

View attachment 1716205568

Even the Firm Feel is spendy...

View attachment 1716205569

With the Firm feel, you're at the mercy of whatever added caster they engineer in. That is fine but still...$450?

FABO sponsor PST doesn't list one for the A body.
If you like your stock stamped steel arms, you're limited to using the Moog K-7103 offset bushings:

View attachment 1716205570


They do work, I have them in my '70 Charger. I must be blessed though because even with standard bushings, this car was able to get over 3 degrees of caster. Now with the bushings, I was able to get 5 degrees on one side, 5.5 on the other. This has to be a case of an absolute positive tolerance stack up!
Okay, back to the point. If you're always looking to do more with less and can weld....
How about this?
How about cutting the UCA on the forward leg, spread it 1/4" and welding in another section?

View attachment 1716205571

Properly welded, it wouldn't fail. The slight change in angle will affect the rear bushing slightly but not enough to matter. This can be done for next to nothing. The 1/4" piece sectioned in could come from small ball joint UCAs that are not as valuable to some people. By welding in an extension, you'd still be able to use any type of bushing, offset or stock so there would still be the same range of adjustment.
Opinions?
Click to expand...
I like the BAC uppers. Way easier to dial in what caster is desired than a fixed amount other UCA's provide.
 
As a professional welder, I like the idea BUT welding changes the metal. It will be harder in some areas and softer in others.
With that said, dependent on what you weld could effect the torsional twist all control arms face going up and down and shifting body roll. It’s why those expensive control area are expensive. The tubing and gussets are far superior to the factory arms flexing in the case of a road course. Or hard Sunday driving. Sadly most people welds are not up to The welding needed to accomplish your fix. Will this work- absolutely. Will it last?…. I’ve seen a lot of welds in my 54 years and most I would not walk on 1 ft above the ground let alone 50ft up. (inside saying with most professional welders. Would you trust somebody’s welds 50ft off the ground to walk on.)
Syleng1
 
What Syleng1 says, plus that whole cold work hardening life cycle of used suspension stampings. In the DOT regulations that I know of that the VA inspection station sticker appliers have to abide by, secondhand welding of suspension components is very much so “frowned upon…”
 
Welding if done right might work A-OK but maybe affordable options with the work already done exists.

HDK OEM replacement UCA assemblies (pair) ....still only $349 includes HDK adjustable UCA bump stop

no bind, keep your OEM cam alignment adjuster with the full range of adjustment
*** install with spacers on rear side of adjustable poly ends....3 degrees positive caster
*** install with spacers on each side of adjustable poly ends....4.5 degrees positive caster
*** install with spacers on front side of adjustable poly ends.....6.0 degrees of positive caster

new HDK ball joint receiver captures and keeps dust boot in place.

three OEM replacement arms to choose from based on spindle
a) small ball joint / 4" bolt circle / 9" drum
b) small ball joint / 4" bolt circle / OEM disc
c) big ball joint / 4.5 bolt circle / drum or disc

20210127_131152.jpg


20210127_130707.jpg


20230130_111102.jpg
 
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installed in Butch's (Leal) street Duster with 9" drum spindles converted to 11" disc (Wilwood). Please note how the wheel tire combo (205 / 70 / 15 on 5" rim / 2.5" BS) stays tucked in for a low, no rub stance

20230603_060004.jpg
 
a couple more views of Butch's street Duster with HDK UCAs @ 6 degrees positive caster.

20230603_112440.jpg


As

30804.jpeg
 
Kern Dog said:
Okay, feel free to let me have it if you think that this is a bad idea but.....
To those that want their cars to handle better, aligning the car to have more caster really helps.
There are numerous ways to get there, some are more effective than others. You can crack open the wallet and buy aftermarket stuff. The Hotchkis stuff seems to be almost infinitely adjustable but holeeeee crap they are expensive.

View attachment 1716205568

Even the Firm Feel is spendy...

View attachment 1716205569

With the Firm feel, you're at the mercy of whatever added caster they engineer in. That is fine but still...$450?

FABO sponsor PST doesn't list one for the A body.
If you like your stock stamped steel arms, you're limited to using the Moog K-7103 offset bushings:

View attachment 1716205570


They do work, I have them in my '70 Charger. I must be blessed though because even with standard bushings, this car was able to get over 3 degrees of caster. Now with the bushings, I was able to get 5 degrees on one side, 5.5 on the other. This has to be a case of an absolute positive tolerance stack up!
Okay, back to the point. If you're always looking to do more with less and can weld....
How about this?
How about cutting the UCA on the forward leg, spread it 1/4" and welding in another section?

View attachment 1716205571

Properly welded, it wouldn't fail. The slight change in angle will affect the rear bushing slightly but not enough to matter. This can be done for next to nothing. The 1/4" piece sectioned in could come from small ball joint UCAs that are not as valuable to some people. By welding in an extension, you'd still be able to use any type of bushing, offset or stock so there would still be the same range of adjustment.
Opinions?
Click to expand...

The SPC’s from @BergmanAutoCraft are the best out there, double adjustable and not that more expensive than the others. Plus they still have bushings for the street cars.

I have a picture of the modifications they were doing for the road race TransAmerica cars, I’ll dig that out and post it

Garrett Ellison said:
What Syleng1 says, plus that whole cold work hardening life cycle of used suspension stampings. In the DOT regulations that I know of that the VA inspection station sticker appliers have to abide by, secondhand welding of suspension components is very much so “frowned upon…”
Click to expand...

Do they have a problem with aftermarket UCA’s though? Because the Hotchkis arms are welded. So are the QA1’s, even the SPC’s have welds around the ball joint sockets.

The weld isn’t so much the issue, it would just be the execution
 
This brings up a question that I have about the 73+ spindles. On my '68 FS FB, I installed 73+ UCA and spindles. Naturally they are wider. But I had sway bar and tire clearance issues with the calipers mounted forward as is stock, so I swapped side to side so the calipers were towards the rear. Worked well but not happy with brake line routing. During restoration, I purchased the Helwig bent sway bar which allowed clearance for the 11.75" rotors and calipers. OK, Happy with that. But the tires moved forward by about 1/4" or a little more. I was running 235-60x15's BFG's before with good clearance. Tight, but no touching. After swapping the spindles back to stock, the tires interfered with the front lower edge of the finder. To get clearance I had to go down 2 sized to 215-60x15's. Not desirable! The wheels are Weld 96-57208 ProStar's with 4.5" Rear Spacing. I am not sure if there are other back spacing options that will give more clearance. Does anyone know if the spindle centerline is offset so that swapping spindles side to side changes effective wheelbase by maybe 1/4" or more?
The 235-60x15 Front photo is of the tires/wheels I ran for 10 years with no issues with the caliper mounted to the rear. With the caliper mounted to the front (see photo), even the 225-60x15's touched the fender (the tire is mounted on a checking rim that is adjustable). So I went with 215-60x15's to clear the fender (but no photo).
Thoughts?

225-60x15 BFG Front.jpg


235-60x15 Front.jpg


Left Front Brake and Spindle.jpg
 
72bluNblu said:
The SPC’s from @BergmanAutoCraft are the best out there, double adjustable and not that more expensive than the others. Plus they still have bushings for the street cars.

I have a picture of the modifications they were doing for the road race TransAmerica cars, I’ll dig that out and post it



Do they have a problem with aftermarket UCA’s though? Because the Hotchkis arms are welded. So are the QA1’s, even the SPC’s have welds around the ball joint sockets.

The weld isn’t so much the issue, it would just be the execution
Click to expand...
No problems with aftermarket produced parts as long as they have a DOT approval. But welding repairs or modification of factory parts have to be performed by someone certified to do DOT fabrication work. Our variety of shop for that type of work is semi truck repair and trailer fabrication.
 
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Not trying to be controversial, but is any modification DOT approved on anybody’s car here?

Top A arm is a pretty low tech piece of stamped steel. Given some reasonable welding skills and a little bit of reinforcing, this seems like a great idea for us cheapskates. Like just about anything, a skilled guy can make it work and an unskilled guy can’t.
 
RLF Cuda said:
This brings up a question that I have about the 73+ spindles. On my '68 FS FB, I installed 73+ UCA and spindles. Naturally they are wider. But I had sway bar and tire clearance issues with the calipers mounted forward as is stock, so I swapped side to side so the calipers were towards the rear. Worked well but not happy with brake line routing. During restoration, I purchased the Helwig bent sway bar which allowed clearance for the 11.75" rotors and calipers. OK, Happy with that. But the tires moved forward by about 1/4" or a little more. I was running 235-60x15's BFG's before with good clearance. Tight, but no touching. After swapping the spindles back to stock, the tires interfered with the front lower edge of the finder. To get clearance I had to go down 2 sized to 215-60x15's. Not desirable! The wheels are Weld 96-57208 ProStar's with 4.5" Rear Spacing. I am not sure if there are other back spacing options that will give more clearance. Does anyone know if the spindle centerline is offset so that swapping spindles side to side changes effective wheelbase by maybe 1/4" or more?
The 235-60x15 Front photo is of the tires/wheels I ran for 10 years with no issues with the caliper mounted to the rear. With the caliper mounted to the front (see photo), even the 225-60x15's touched the fender (the tire is mounted on a checking rim that is adjustable). So I went with 215-60x15's to clear the fender (but no photo).
Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Is it possible you have the upper control arms swapped side to side? It may be the angle of the picture but it appears you have a ton of negative caster (upper ball joint forward of center line).
For what it's worth I was able to achieve 4.5 degrees of positive caster using the factory suspension and a set of homemade roller bearings in place of bushings, a port a power and help of the blue wrench.
 
Photo was taken during mockup. Alignment not done yet. I am using the Moog offset bushings and got about 5° caster previously. Hoping to get that again.
 
RLF Cuda said:
This brings up a question that I have about the 73+ spindles. On my '68 FS FB, I installed 73+ UCA and spindles. Naturally they are wider. But I had sway bar and tire clearance issues with the calipers mounted forward as is stock, so I swapped side to side so the calipers were towards the rear. Worked well but not happy with brake line routing. During restoration, I purchased the Helwig bent sway bar which allowed clearance for the 11.75" rotors and calipers. OK, Happy with that. But the tires moved forward by about 1/4" or a little more. I was running 235-60x15's BFG's before with good clearance. Tight, but no touching. After swapping the spindles back to stock, the tires interfered with the front lower edge of the finder. To get clearance I had to go down 2 sized to 215-60x15's. Not desirable! The wheels are Weld 96-57208 ProStar's with 4.5" Rear Spacing. I am not sure if there are other back spacing options that will give more clearance. Does anyone know if the spindle centerline is offset so that swapping spindles side to side changes effective wheelbase by maybe 1/4" or more?
The 235-60x15 Front photo is of the tires/wheels I ran for 10 years with no issues with the caliper mounted to the rear. With the caliper mounted to the front (see photo), even the 225-60x15's touched the fender (the tire is mounted on a checking rim that is adjustable). So I went with 215-60x15's to clear the fender (but no photo).
Thoughts?

View attachment 1716205701

View attachment 1716205706

View attachment 1716205707
Click to expand...

The spindles are symmetrical, swapping them side for side changes nothing except the position of the caliper.

If you haven’t done the alignment, that may have a lot to do with it.

Honestly, I’m surprised you didn’t have any clearance issues before with the 26.1” tall 235’s. The barracuda wheel opening is pretty restrictive, and a 26” tire doesn’t clear on a lot of cars.

Something else changed when you swapped the spindles, the alignment, ride height, or some other suspension adjustment. Was the spindle swap all you did? What else was changed at the same time?
 
All good info, just to throw this out there, do a 180 and look at the lower ball joint if the holes to bolt to the spindle were drilled in a different location causing the lower portion of the spindle forward say 1/4-inch wont that help with positive caster, maybe someone can make this happen and should not cost much more during manufacturing replacement parts. What do you think.
 
moparlvr166 said:
All good info, just to throw this out there, do a 180 and look at the lower ball joint if the holes to bolt to the spindle were drilled in a different location causing the lower portion of the spindle forward say 1/4-inch wont that help with positive caster, maybe someone can make this happen and should not cost much more during manufacturing replacement parts. What do you think.
Click to expand...

I think the spindles are symmetric, and it's really unlikely the mounting holes for the steering arms are off a 1/4" on a machined part since the tolerances for that stuff is in thousandths.
 
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