The old 10w30 vs 20w50

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fnaramore

fnaramore

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Making the transition to VR1 in my 318 and need some opinions here. Engine is moderately modified, all top end. Currently with 5w50 gets ~50 psi at start up/25 at idle when hot. Generally a cozy 90-100* outside, engine runs at 180-195 and probably would be driving about 70 miles a week with some occasional hard launches. Plan to do 3000 mile or 4 month oil changes, which ever comes first.
 
How many miles, How much wear? I had a 68 coronet stock 318 with 156,000 miles using 10w40 in warm weather. No smoke, good pressure on the gauge. Similar weather to yours.
 
IM not liking 25 PSI at idle hot.....a little weak on hot idle press IMO.
The 10-30 or 40 should be a better choice
 
The general rule of thumb is 10 psi per 1,000 RPM, works with chevy engines at least, 385K miles on mine with this "general" rule of thumb. For the longest time I ran 20/50 Mobil 1, I slowly milked in 10/40 and noticed a small power increase, immediately. Oh great maybe time for 10/30....more power increase or the engine just isnt having to work near as hard to pump the thinner oil. I would guess it at about a 20-25 HP increase over 20/50...free gas mileage !!!
 
25 PSI at hot idle is TONS for a stock pump. That's good oil pressure. The factory spec is usually given @ 2000 RPM.
 
fnaramore said:
Making the transition to VR1 in my 318 and need some opinions here. Engine is moderately modified, all top end. Currently with 5w50 gets ~50 psi at start up/25 at idle when hot. Generally a cozy 90-100* outside, engine runs at 180-195 and probably would be driving about 70 miles a week with some occasional hard launches. Plan to do 3000 mile or 4 month oil changes, which ever comes first.
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There are very few 5w50 mineral oil out ther. In fact I can't even think of one.

Why would you go from a synthetic that has a winter grade that will go to zero degrees farenheit and had a 50 grade protection at 212 degrees?

Even if it's a mineral oil, it's either an expensive one.

I'm not a fan of VR-1. It is a HORSEPOWER killer.
 
RustyRatRod said:
25 PSI at hot idle is TONS for a stock pump. That's good oil pressure. The factory spec is usually given @ 2000 RPM.
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People seem to get carried away with "wow my oil pressure is****" As long as the engine runs well, no strange noises, what ever oil pressure is, is what it is! IMO
 
yellow rose said:
There are very few 5w50 mineral oil out ther. In fact I can't even think of one.

Why would you go from a synthetic that has a winter grade that will go to zero degrees farenheit and had a 50 grade protection at 212 degrees?

Even if it's a mineral oil, it's either an expensive one.

I'm not a fan of VR-1. It is a HORSEPOWER killer.
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Like I said on that other thread iv got going now, the oil I currently use is Castrol Edge 5w-50 synthetic, its about $10 a quart. However by what you said on my other thread, it seems as though it may not be a true synthetic and more prone to possible break down.
 
In reference to Marks post. Lets say that you wanted more than the 25 Psi you were getting from 20w-50; psi being a measurement of resistance, would it not go down if you switch to a lower weight oil?
 
fnaramore said:
Like I said on that other thread iv got going now, the oil I currently use is Castrol Edge 5w-50 synthetic, its about $10 a quart. However by what you said on my other thread, it seems as though it may not be a true synthetic and more prone to possible break down.
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IIRC it's a group III base stock. The government says its synthetic. IMO, it is a highly refined mineral oil, but that's my opinion. Don't know what a bunch of policy wonks who never had a real job know about oil, except what they were paid to know.

That said, there is no sense going to VR-1 if what are using is working. Oil is price point relevant. For the most part, the more you spend, the better the oil.

That's why oil like Torco, LAT and the like are 20.00 or more per quart. Since this has been hashed out here before I wont go into more detail. But I will tell you, about the only oil I tested that was more of a horsepower loss than VR-1 was Pennzoil.

That horsepower loss only comes from 2 places. Fluid friction, and friction.

One more thing that I think people forget. You are checking oil pressure AFTER a filter. A better oil will move through the filter so idle pressure SHOULD go up if the oil takes less power to drive. Spent a bunch of my money and customer money testing oil and fuel. And just like fuel, you get what you pay for, especially when you factor in who spends $$$$$$$$$$ on marketing, and who doesn't.
 
fnaramore said:
In reference to Marks post. Lets say that you wanted more than the 25 Psi you were getting from 20w-50; psi being a measurement of resistance, would it not go down if you switch to a lower weight oil?
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Nope. It better of up, or someone fibbed.
 
Please explain why VR-1 is a horsepower killer. I'm using 10w-30 in my Barracuda.
 
Joe Gibbs HR 10w-30..nothing wrong with 25 p.s.i. for oil pressure my engine has been showing that warmed up for years..
 
yellow rose said:
IIRC it's a group III base stock. The government says its synthetic. IMO, it is a highly refined mineral oil, but that's my opinion.
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That's not just an opinion, it is a fact.

IMHO, the OP should NOT worry about a group III base breaking down excessively. The properties of the group III are VERY different than the commonly refined group I and II bases, despite all 3 groups coming from a petroleum base. Not breaking down (or oxidizing) excessively is one of those special properties of group III bases.

Read here and you will see that this is true.
Performance of Base Oils and Future Trends - The Evolution of Base Oil Technology - Part 3

Castrol Syntec is a Group III base. I have yet to find what the base is for VR1, but the fact that it is only available in 10W30, 20W50, and 4 straight grades, makes me inclined to think that it is only a blend of group III with group II or I oil bases. There is a reason that is costs less.... IMHO, this is step down in oil base quallity, and I bet the OP will see darker oil at the oil changes, i.e., more oxidation. This may be adequate for the engine application.
 
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For the OP, one of the benefits of a lighter oil is better cooling of internal engine parts. With 25 psi hot idle pressure, I would not worry about going down a grade level in hot viscosity. But, the hot viscority of a blended base 10W30 is going to be a lot lower than a group III base 5W50, so I would not be surprised if the hot idle oil pressure goes down more than 5 psi.
 
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nm9stheham said:
That's not just an opinion, it is a fact.

IMHO, the OP should NOT worry about a group III base breaking down excessively. The properties of the group III are VERY different than the commonly refined group I and II bases, despite all 3 groups coming from a petroleum base. Not breaking down (or oxidizing) excessively is one of those special properties of group III bases.

Read here and you will see that this is true.
Performance of Base Oils and Future Trends - The Evolution of Base Oil Technology - Part 3

Castrol Syntec is a Group III base. I have yet to find what the base is for VR1.
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If you talk to me enough you will learn that hitting my head against the wall over this kind of stuff is one of my worst traits haha very much appreciate your input!
 
Well, ya know, discussion is a good way to learn new stuff. I learn things all the time here, and spin around and around on the same things at times 'til I learn. FABO has a lot of smart folks on it. Hope it helps.....
 
bbeep71 said:
Please explain why VR-1 is a horsepower killer. I'm using 10w-30 in my Barracuda.
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Because it has a huge amount of zinc, which is good, but not much else. It's a striped down, economy oil.

Zinc is a big power eater, but you have to have it, and should have a bunch of it even with roller lifters.

The VR-1 additive pack is a bare bones cheap deal.

Like I said, the only oil I found more power loss was Pennzoil. And Pennzoil is about the dirtiest oil I have run across.
 
yellow rose said:
Because it has a huge amount of zinc, which is good, but not much else. It's a striped down, economy oil.

Zinc is a big power eater, but you have to have it, and should have a bunch of it even with roller lifters.

The VR-1 additive pack is a bare bones cheap deal.

Like I said, the only oil I found more power loss was Pennzoil. And Pennzoil is about the dirtiest oil I have run across.
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Interesting perspective to hear. On most of these threads a lot of people recommend it
 
fnaramore said:
Interesting perspective to hear. On most of these threads a lot of people recommend it
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That's because it won't kill your flat tappet cam, and they never tested it against anything else.

I'll say it again, in case it was missed. Oil testing is some of th most time consuming, money draining develop that can be done. Especially now, as more companies are developing oils for application specific purposes.

Testing costs money, and most guys buy products based on 2 simple things.

1. What their buddies and interwebs friends use.
2. What they can get with minimal discomfort.

Sad but true. It was that way long before I got into motorsports. It will be that way long after I'm dead.
 
I have never denied that Torco was a superior oil. That said, I have to use the best I can find within my budget constraints and Torco ain't it. Millions of people have had great service from oils seemingly "way inferior" to Torco for a very long time. I think the single basic key is, keep the oil and filter changed regularly and use the best oil that you can afford. If all of the "other oil" on the market besides Torco was junk, you'd see a very long line of pissed off customers filing lawsuits. Since that ain't happenin, people are getting good service out of those so called "inferior motor oils". Just my 2 cents. Just pick your damn oil, run it and keep it changed.
 
RustyRatRod said:
I have never denied that Torco was a superior oil. That said, I have to use the best I can find within my budget constraints and Torco ain't it. Millions of people have had great service from oils seemingly "way inferior" to Torco for a very long time. I think the single basic key is, keep the oil and filter changed regularly and use the best oil that you can afford. If all of the "other oil" on the market besides Torco was junk, you'd see a very long line of pissed off customers filing lawsuits. Since that ain't happenin, people are getting good service out of those so called "inferior motor oils". Just my 2 cents. Just pick your damn oil, run it and keep it changed.
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That's part of it. You can't just buy Torco and go. You have to order. Not everyone heeds the most expensive oil Torco produces. They make oils that are comparable in price to any other mineral based oil out there.

The fact is, there isn't one right oil. That's why some companies (like Torco) produce APLLICATION SPECIFIC oils.

I run it because of the THOUSANDS of dollars worth of testing either I directly participated in, or was paid to observe.

I can also tell you form running engines with 380-400 pounds of spring pressure ON THE SEAT and well over 1000 pounds OVER THE NOSE, you can see inferior oils costing valve spring life, pushrod wear and ring seal. You can change oil all you want, and it won't fix those issues.

Like I had said before, it's not designed, developed, produced and marketed for.
 
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