The Plymouth Weslake DOHC Motor from the 60's

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Locomotion said:
Here is the original cover of the book by Larry Schreib.
I'm not at home to check, but I thought this original was published by HP Books.View attachment 1715549732
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Yes HP books.

Must have sold or morphed into SA.

What I have is a predecessor to that book that just covers Small Block Mopar. Wonder if there was a big block version???

Any one else seen a copy of this book???

This one’s got Larry Shreib’s notes written in it. Probably for the later combined book Locomotion posted.

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See his notes:

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That first engine ins't the same unit in the other pics, look at the rocker cover type & angle, and the port shapes. That's a unique beast, & Weslake did a few 4V & DOHC heads for other makes way back...thx for posting that up TB !!:thumbsup:
 
Some really cool stuff guys, anybody remember the rocker ball hemi in 1972. It kind of looks like a BB Chevy head.

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oldkimmer said:
Is that the same as the ball stud hemi?
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Yes. That IS the ball stud Hemi.

Arruza bought it from Landy.

Then he put it in Tom Hoover’s 69’ Cuda that had W-2 and other Direct Connection stuff on it as a test bed over the years.

BUT never had the ball stud Hemi in it. Lame move, IMHO.
 
I got my Mopar Performance book today, picked off fleabay for $12.
Replaced the one I never got back!
Inside front cover is the Indy Small Block motor!
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Loving the 'ball-stud hemi engine'!
A poorman's hemi, yeah right lol...:thumbsup:

Mother Mopar lost a small fortune on every hemi they sold and the crazy guys were wrecking them most weekends at a drag-strip!
The replacement 'warranty engines' must have had the Mopar bean counters having nightmares...:BangHead:
I think they got a little bored with all the excuses of ''I was only taking Grandma for her groceries when the engine let GO''!:rofl:

I spoke to the Landy's and Don Garlits over the years about the Weslake Nascar engine and both wanted it for different reasons.
There is a lot of development pieces spread 'far and wide' going back to the early sixties I bet.
Top Drawer engine builders would have collected it 'back in the day' to advance knowledge for drag racers, pre Aluminum heads.
I hear the Chrysler Museum is now shut down and a lot of rare bits are floundering in dusty corners?

So who will take up the banner and collect them all up for 'old farts' (like me) to see them in ONE PLACE?
They should be 'gassed-up ready to run' (for a small fee) so we can see and hear the glorious sound of HEMI in the flesh!
Watching Nick and others doing DYNO runs on (newtube) is only a warm-up for the real thing...:thankyou:
 
Ball stud hemi valve arrangement, so close to the Poly, its uncanny...:poke:

Polyshere 318.jpg


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600hp ovalport small-block Poly's, how mad is that in the 21st century...:realcrazy:

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Ovalports are the future...
 
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But oiling and drain back holes are a issue. I dont recall if the oil supply passage is in the same spot on a poly vs la. You would need external oil drain back lines to the oil pan if you wanted poly heads on a la block.
 
replicaracer43 said:
But oiling and drain back holes are a issue. I dont recall if the oil supply passage is in the same spot on a poly vs la. You would need external oil drain back lines to the oil pan if you wanted poly heads on a la block.
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so it can be done ? sounds like a win to me better breathing ?
 
replicaracer43 said:
But oiling and drain back holes are a issue. I dont recall if the oil supply passage is in the same spot on a poly vs la. You would need external oil drain back lines to the oil pan if you wanted poly heads on a la block.
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Someone built a odd small block for the Engine Masters Challenge like that. External oil drains, Poly heads on an LA and a cut up LS intake 'cause nothing fits that combo stock. Had to drill a Poly cam for LA rocker oiling too.

Found it...

This 426-Cube 318 Poly Can Outgun Hemis!
 
Nat said:
so it can be done ? sounds like a win to me better breathing ?
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It CAN be done, but the heads do not flow enough to make big power without major porting. There is no magic power in the poly head.
 
and during all these head designs , never another twin valve hemi or poly or candid head for the la's . why not ?
 
I may be late on this thread as I just joined the group. The Plymouth Indy engine pictured is a 320 cubic inch using Westlake heads. It was not a DOHC as posted. My dad was head R&D at Keith Black and worked with the late Pete Hutchison. Various engines were built for Trans-AM, drag racing and Nascar. My dad and Bob Torarzzi who was contracted through Chrysler to work out of KBRE to do developed all things Mopar, including big blocks, Hemi, D5 heads and the various 305 small block engines. In 1971 due to rule changes in Nascar, running a "Winged Car", Bill France required all engines to be 305 cubic inches. Mario Rossi stuck a 305 based off the Trans-Am engines used by Sam Posey and the AAR Gurney team in his # 22 1969 Dodge Daytona. They nicked named the engine "Lunchbox" because it was so small in the massive Daytona engine bay. In the race Richard Brooks took the lead five different times before getting knocked out by Pete Hamilton. The Daytona placed seventh in the race after a long pitstop. The main difference between the Trans-AM engine was the dry sump used on the Rossi Daytona. Brooks reported it would run 10,000 RPM's down the straights. I'm currently in contact with the late owner's son on the cars restoration. Much help on my research has come from Bob Tarozzi...He confirmed all of this on the Rossi engine.
Youtube the 1971 Daytona and you'll witness how well the little engine ran. It needed a draft as it quit did not have the power to lead...if only it hadn't spun out!
The Plymouth 320 Indy engine did win at Dover. And yes it's true that Granniteli poured cold STP in the oil tank and caused a drop of oil pressure in a practice session. The engine was then air freighted back to KBRE where my dad mounted it up on the dyno and the engine still had great oil pressure...my dad wasn't very pleased a AG to say the least. My dad retired from racing in 1972. Both my dad and KB started KBRE out of Keith's garage in the fifties...it was briefly named Black and Sykes Engines after my dad left Clay Smith after Clay's death.
Some photos of my dad preparing to run an injected 305 and a Champion Spark Plug ad on winning Dover in the Westlake 320 Plymouth. Enjoy!

Dad 305 Engine KBRE Dyno .jpg


DAD PLYMOUTH INDY CHAMPION SPARK PLUG AD (2).jpg
 
I gotta say....every time I hear the Westlake name in relation to cylinder heads, it seems one common theme comes out - they could make a small cube engine run but never understood the bigger cube American V8s.
 
Kenny Sykes said:
I may be late on this thread as I just joined the group. The Plymouth Indy engine pictured is a 320 cubic inch using Westlake heads. It was not a DOHC as posted. My dad was head R&D at Keith Black and worked with the late Pete Hutchison. Various engines were built for Trans-AM, drag racing and Nascar. My dad and Bob Torarzzi who was contracted through Chrysler to work out of KBRE to do developed all things Mopar, including big blocks, Hemi, D5 heads and the various 305 small block engines. In 1971 due to rule changes in Nascar, running a "Winged Car", Bill France required all engines to be 305 cubic inches. Mario Rossi stuck a 305 based off the Trans-Am engines used by Sam Posey and the AAR Gurney team in his # 22 1969 Dodge Daytona. They nicked named the engine "Lunchbox" because it was so small in the massive Daytona engine bay. In the race Richard Brooks took the lead five different times before getting knocked out by Pete Hamilton. The Daytona placed seventh in the race after a long pitstop. The main difference between the Trans-AM engine was the dry sump used on the Rossi Daytona. Brooks reported it would run 10,000 RPM's down the straights. I'm currently in contact with the late owner's son on the cars restoration. Much help on my research has come from Bob Tarozzi...He confirmed all of this on the Rossi engine.
Youtube the 1971 Daytona and you'll witness how well the little engine ran. It needed a draft as it quit did not have the power to lead...if only it hadn't spun out!
The Plymouth 320 Indy engine did win at Dover. And yes it's true that Granniteli poured cold STP in the oil tank and caused a drop of oil pressure in a practice session. The engine was then air freighted back to KBRE where my dad mounted it up on the dyno and the engine still had great oil pressure...my dad wasn't very pleased a AG to say the least. My dad retired from racing in 1972. Both my dad and KB started KBRE out of Keith's garage in the fifties...it was briefly named Black and Sykes Engines after my dad left Clay Smith after Clay's death.
Some photos of my dad preparing to run an injected 305 and a Champion Spark Plug ad on winning Dover in the Westlake 320 Plymouth. Enjoy!

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mind blowing post . Would love to hear a small block mopar at 10,000 rpm why can't we do that with the tech we have today . just imagine 10,000 rpm with a 8 speed that would sound insane
 
Kenny Sykes said:
I may be late on this thread as I just joined the group. The Plymouth Indy engine pictured is a 320 cubic inch using Westlake heads. It was not a DOHC as posted. My dad was head R&D at Keith Black and worked with the late Pete Hutchison. Various engines were built for Trans-AM, drag racing and Nascar. My dad and Bob Torarzzi who was contracted through Chrysler to work out of KBRE to do developed all things Mopar, including big blocks, Hemi, D5 heads and the various 305 small block engines. In 1971 due to rule changes in Nascar, running a "Winged Car", Bill France required all engines to be 305 cubic inches. Mario Rossi stuck a 305 based off the Trans-Am engines used by Sam Posey and the AAR Gurney team in his # 22 1969 Dodge Daytona. They nicked named the engine "Lunchbox" because it was so small in the massive Daytona engine bay. In the race Richard Brooks took the lead five different times before getting knocked out by Pete Hamilton. The Daytona placed seventh in the race after a long pitstop. The main difference between the Trans-AM engine was the dry sump used on the Rossi Daytona. Brooks reported it would run 10,000 RPM's down the straights. I'm currently in contact with the late owner's son on the cars restoration. Much help on my research has come from Bob Tarozzi...He confirmed all of this on the Rossi engine.
Youtube the 1971 Daytona and you'll witness how well the little engine ran. It needed a draft as it quit did not have the power to lead...if only it hadn't spun out!
The Plymouth 320 Indy engine did win at Dover. And yes it's true that Granniteli poured cold STP in the oil tank and caused a drop of oil pressure in a practice session. The engine was then air freighted back to KBRE where my dad mounted it up on the dyno and the engine still had great oil pressure...my dad wasn't very pleased a AG to say the least. My dad retired from racing in 1972. Both my dad and KB started KBRE out of Keith's garage in the fifties...it was briefly named Black and Sykes Engines after my dad left Clay Smith after Clay's death.
Some photos of my dad preparing to run an injected 305 and a Champion Spark Plug ad on winning Dover in the Westlake 320 Plymouth. Enjoy!

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View attachment 1715560440
Click to expand...

Kenny,

Thank you so much for sharing this info.

To clarify. There were two basic motors?

305 stock based head

320 Westlake head

Did they run/try both in Indy asphalt tracks?

I’ve also seen pics of the Westlake in a USAC sprint car. Did they run the conventional head in those too?
 
autoxcuda said:
Kenny,

Thank you so much for sharing this info.

To clarify. There were two basic motors?

305 stock based head

320 Westlake head

Did they run/try both in Indy asphalt tracks?

I’ve also seen pics of the Westlake in a USAC sprint car. Did they run the conventional head in those too?
Click to expand...
Thank you!
Somewhere in the photos on this thread is my dad with Pete Hutchison from the MotorTrend magazine article. At first it was ported 340 heads done at KB’s. First test on dyno they achieved around 545 HP if I remember correctly with small percentage of nitro. I was very young at the time, but my older brother said dad was beaming that they were able to get close to 600 with the Westlake Heads.
There is an article in the April 71 issue of HotRod were Keith was offering different packages for different budgets and of course different types of racing.
I have my dad’s build spec sheet on the 318 Indy engine which was really a 320. Dad did the nice gear drive setup for the ignition, water pump, fuel pump and dry sump pump to fit all nicely in the Indy chassis. Everything was driven off the front of engine. Some interesting notes are in my dad’s build sheet.
There’s very little info out there on what was all used in racing. Thanks to Bob Tarozzi I just learned of my dad building the Rossi 305. Obviously KB gets the credit but he had a hell of good team which mostly was my dad’s work with Pete and then Bob Tarozzi. Bob Tarozzi specked it all and dad built it. Many hours running the test engines like a race with wide open throttle was done. The heads used were T/A heads with the rockers raised about a 1/2 inch using Hemi valve springs and harden chrome rocker shafts. I’m not sure on the valves used...maybe Hemi again to fit. An Engle cam was used which was the first choice of most KB engines... although a Racer Brown cam was used in the 320 with Johnson lifters.
I’m happy to finally share this!
 
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