Tighter emmisions standards

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1930

1930

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From what I have gathered approx 1972 tighter emmissions went into affect, one of the changes made was to reduce the amount of initial advance at the dampner. In some cases from what I have read these slant sixes could have been set at 0 or even BTDC from the factory to get this lesser emmissions reading at idle.

I do not understand how this made the engine opperate more efficiently or helped with fuel burn-off.

From the way I understand it we tend to want to advance our vehicles as far as is possible ( without pinging ) so that the fuel sprayed into the cylinder has a better chance to be utilized. Cleaner more efficient burn.

Were the manufacturers just oblivious to how an internal combustion engine operated back then or were there other emmissions items added to the vehicle to offset any negative condition this poor initial advance produced
 
Late timing = Hotter exhaust, so more remaining unburned fuel gets burned in the exhaust. Especially if air is pumped into the exhaust to keep the flame burning longer.

Retarded timing and dropping compression ratios were IMO simply knee-jerk reactions to pending legislation because the technology (Cat. convertors and such) wasn't readily available on a large scale yet.
 
It wasn't just 72. "It all started" in 66 in CA and in 68 Federally (U.S.) It got worse every couple / three years. I can still remember in the fall of 66 a local "Chivvie" (dealer) mechanic and some of us were standing around BSing and he was expounding on how "we" would never put up with it, how "we" were going to be rioting in the streets, and on, and on. Of course "we" did none of that. "We" bought the same new cars "we" always did. Some of us threw away the smog pumps.


The manufacturers were some of the last people on earth who wanted to willingly cooperate with either CA or Federal emissions laws. I can assure you they know EXACTLY how engines work. "The cure" (for the OEMs) was EFI. However, that technology simply was not all that advanced back then. There were a few vehicles that DID have EFI, the squareback VW's was one. But even these had their problems

When EFI first came out there were several articles in the popular (no pun intended) hot rod mags about how that and emissions laws was the end of rodding. It's obvious, that was wrong.
 
Changing cam timing/specs and ignition timing was to lower the NO'X's....which later was the job of EGR Valves.
EGR in basic terms, it's like eating your own **** and still expected to perform.

We went to EGRV's here in about 1976, and then they disappeared (~1988) for a few years, then started to make a come back in about 2000.
We started using Unleaded in 1986.....no CATs before that.
 
I dont understand why then instead of adding things like air pumps ect that they wouldnt just increase the efficiency of the engine to burn cleaner, maybe this was not possible? Maybe like I have been told total timing is a number that really is built into the engineered charactersitics of the engine and again this couldnt be improved to burn any cleaner.

So instead of re-designing/re-configuring things ( assumig that was even possible/major re-vamps ) they instead decided to go the easier way and retard the timing (regardless of the innefiency ) and then just burn the un-used fuel in the exhaust before it reached the tailpipe?
 
Believe me, if the manufacturers could have done this easier and simplier, "they would have." Honda, for example, experimented with (don't remember what it was called) a separate burn chamber in the head. Basically, the car manufacturers were brought kicking and screaming to the "emissions table" just like they were brought "kicking and screaming" to the "safety table."

Nobody cared about "you." "They" that is, "the thems" only cared about emissions (govt) and "the bottom line" (manufacturers)
 
67Dart273 said:
Believe me, if the manufacturers could have done this easier and simplier, "they would have." Honda, for example, experimented with (don't remember what it was called) a separate burn chamber in the head. Basically, the car manufacturers were brought kicking and screaming to the "emissions table" just like they were brought "kicking and screaming" to the "safety table."

Nobody cared about "you." "They" that is, "the thems" only cared about emissions (govt) and "the bottom line" (manufacturers)
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CVCC
Controlled Vortex Combustion Chamber.

My family and I owned several of these little civics. They were great little gas sippers. We could pick them up for a 100 bucks used with blown head gaskets. The cylinder heads would "Walk" and blow. The fix it was a gasket that allowed for this. The little carbs that came on them were part of the success of the engine, but they were junk if they got clogged. My dad replaced one with a Webber on my sisters and it was little rocket.

My current smog problem here in Kalifornia is my 99 Dakota R/T. It barely failed the smog test. I wanted a new cat for it but they do not make them anymore! They stopped making them a few years ago and they were like $1200! So now my $25,000. truck sits in the driveway with no way to register it with out throwing myself on the mercy of the California air resources board smog referee station. :banghead:
 
CichliDart said:
CVCC
Controlled Vortex Combustion Chamber.

My family and I owned several of these little civics. They were great little gas sippers. We could pick them up for a 100 bucks used with blown head gaskets. The cylinder heads would "Walk" and blow. The fix it was a gasket that allowed for this. The little carbs that came on them were part of the success of the engine, but they were junk if they got clogged. My dad replaced one with a Webber on my sisters and it was little rocket.

My current smog problem here in Kalifornia is my 99 Dakota R/T. It barely failed the smog test. I wanted a new cat for it but they do not make them anymore! They stopped making them a few years ago and they were like $1200! So now my $25,000. truck sits in the driveway with no way to register it with out throwing myself on the mercy of the California air resources board smog referee station. :banghead:
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You may need to run some of this http://www.nulon.com.au/products/Aerosols/Foaming_Air_Intake_Cleaner/
through the engine....goes in the intake system.
You can spray it down each spark plug hole too.
I then use normal carby cleaner after that to remove more residue.
Just the other day I cleaned up a carby and intake from a 1989 Ford Telstar....looked like new when done.....clean as a whistle.
 
For the guy with the bad convertor that would cost $1200. I had an old car that failed emissions. I knew it needed a new cat because when the exhaust was replaced, I saw that the element in the cst was gone. To replace it at the muffler shop was like $400. I said the hell with that and went out and bought a universal cat that was approximately the same length. Put it on and the car passed with flying colrs. So why not try a universal cat, mine was $30 instead on $300. Extra $100 to install at the shop. Oh, and I put the uni cat on myself.
 
Louie70Dart said:
For the guy with the bad convertor that would cost $1200. I had an old car that failed emissions. I knew it needed a new cat because when the exhaust was replaced, I saw that the element in the cst was gone. To replace it at the muffler shop was like $400. I said the hell with that and went out and bought a universal cat that was approximately the same length. Put it on and the car passed with flying colrs. So why not try a universal cat, mine was $30 instead on $300. Extra $100 to install at the shop. Oh, and I put the uni cat on myself.
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This is great advice, however here in Kalifornia they have upped the ante. Now they do manual inspections and look at the cat to see if it is correct for the year and model. I did pick up a cat from a 98 Ram 5.9 which should pass on the machine but not the visual :wack:. Also when you are Cat shopping you may see the words "49 State". Guess which state is number 50? :banghead: We can find universal ones but again they may do a visual inspection and it can fail.
 
Can't you graft in a late model CAT from something else ????
I run a BMW Zuna-Starker built CAT on my Ford....and it's a 400cpi one too.
 
Yes, the problems have gotten tougher since actual tailpipe emissions are no longer what they are after. If it were about emissions, then what difference does it make how it got there? The whole "Looking at the car to make sure nothing has been changed", or "flunking the car because it has a stored code in the ECM" Is garbage. It has little to do with clean air or they would just read your emissions at the tailpipe and pass or fail you.

Here's my theory ( as though anyone asked): DEQ ( or smog) is a cash cow that every car in the PDX has to go through every two years at a cost of $21 a shot. Since there are very few cars that would fail on tailpipe emissions ( 83% pass even with the tougher requirements), they have to "raise the bar" to justify the program's existence. Some places, Like OKC, have gotten rid of smog testing for this reason. Thus, they add criteria that have zero effect on smog. As I understand it, most of the 17% that fail do so on stored codes due to things like loose gas caps.

My 77 Volare still has not passed in Portland, Oregon....and has sat for four months now without tags, since now you can only get two 10 day temp permits and that's all.
 
You guys in Northern California (that's Oregon) need to get together and raise 'ell with the state. There is no reason why any 77 car should be expected to pass a smog test.
 
67Dart273 said:
You guys in Northern California (that's Oregon) need to get together and raise 'ell with the state. There is no reason why any 77 car should be expected to pass a smog test.
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74 and older is no emissions, its actually worse here in Az for the old stuff, 67 and older is no emissions... FINALLY motorcycles as of this year, all of them get a bye now...
 
In California 96 and newer(OBD2),a plugged/dead catalytic converter has to be replaced by a legal one with the CARB/Bar exemption E.O. number. I have seen people take the OEM cat shields off,and swap on the new one. Seen a few: used car dealers do this.
 
805moparkid said:
74 and older is no emissions, its actually worse here in Az for the old stuff, 67 and older is no emissions... FINALLY motorcycles as of this year, all of them get a bye now...
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I know, we've talked about this. The thing I find utterly unbelievable about this is that unless you have a 67 which was originally a CA car, THERE WERE NO emissions stuff on a 67, except for PCV. The idea that AZ would come up with a law, and try to enforce it, against something "that never was" is utterly preposterous.

This is like saying you have to put airbags in your model T Ford.
 
67Dart273 said:
You guys in Northern California (that's Oregon) need to get together and raise 'ell with the state. There is no reason why any 77 car should be expected to pass a smog test.
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You have to understand Oregon politics. Here, if someone ran on the platform of reforming or getting rid of DEQ testing,or if a referendum was put on the ballot, an ad would show up on TV that goes- "Joe Teabag, and anyone who votes for him, WANTS dirty air and water! They want to reduce our standards for clean air! They hate little woodland animals! They want your children dead! Vote for Pete Sierra, he will fight to protect our environment! .....Paid for by the tax grubbers who make money off your car and spend it on gay pride parades."

The majority of people here would eat that up. They are really that, well, I don't know.
 
I'm sure glad they don't have any smog testing here in Alberta.
It sure sounds like a real P.I.T.A.
 
67Dart273 said:
I know, we've talked about this. The thing I find utterly unbelievable about this is that unless you have a 67 which was originally a CA car, THERE WERE NO emissions stuff on a 67, except for PCV. The idea that AZ would come up with a law, and try to enforce it, against something "that never was" is utterly preposterous.

This is like saying you have to put airbags in your model T Ford.
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its not so much "they came up with it", its just that its never been changed, from what i understand the current emissions for the older stuff has been mostly unchanged since the 80's. I called the head of the AZ emission dept and he said its a joke as well. Problem is before the beginning of the year motorcycles newer than i think a 78 had to be smogged... So alot went into getting that fixed. I just also got word from SAN that AZ legislature missed the deadline to get the ball rolling again for a rolling 25 law and that nothing can happen till mid 2015.

NOW the odd part to me is in 2010 the law was already passed and as i understood it from the AZ emissions guy is that the EPA already has the info from AZ on the matter and had to look into it. So in all honesty i dont know WTF is going on lol....
 
Emissions is a joke these days, all the cars run way cleaner than before cats and computerized engine management, which 98% of the commuter cars on the road today are composed of. I don't understand why, minus the income, that it exists. To catch the 2% of cars that run bad? All while cashing in on the 98% that don't.

Reminds me of modern 'law enforcement', glorified revenue collectors. In my expirence, it became real apparent in the recession what side the law is really on, and it isn't mine.

I used to be straight as an arrow, now, I vote to get away with what you can, f*ck em.
 
Louie70Dart said:
For the guy with the bad convertor that would cost $1200. I had an old car that failed emissions. I knew it needed a new cat because when the exhaust was replaced, I saw that the element in the cst was gone. To replace it at the muffler shop was like $400. I said the hell with that and went out and bought a universal cat that was approximately the same length. Put it on and the car passed with flying colrs. So why not try a universal cat, mine was $30 instead on $300. Extra $100 to install at the shop. Oh, and I put the uni cat on myself.
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x2 had to do that with the wife's truck. And I've done that for a few of my beater cars as well. Just get them to measure the outside diameter and install a universal replacement that's close to the same size. It will pass fine after that. Be sure to take the OEM cat shields off,and swap on the new one so it will have the carb OE number on it. Also don't let the vehicle sit for long periods without running. Tends to cause the elements in the cats to rot and clog up.
 
Well, being born (1955) and raised in California, I don't miss the good ol days of a reddish-brown sky, eyes tearing up when I went outside, painful aching lungs during sports, and not being able to see Catalina Island just 26 miles off the coast nor the Los Angeles Mountains just 30 miles away. Some of my friends who moved here from other states had the same complaints in their home cities. The smog pumps in CA cars beginning in 1966 actually were a blessing that was not really appreciated. The talk around SoCal was that the time table for the clean air standards would not allow the car manufacturers or the petroleum industry to meet those standards. The timing retardation was to address the NOx emissions that produced photo-chemical smog (burning eyes, aching lungs) and acid rain. Today's technology allows us to have greater horsepower and cleaner burning engines that could not be imagined back in the Muscle Car era. It is ironic that, in the beginning, technology was way behind CA law and now CA law is way behind technology. The original catalytic converters were made with Paladium and Silver. It was common to find out your cat was stolen in order to make money off the metal. Since then, zeolites (a form of Aluminum oxide) were developed that performed much better than the Paladium-Silver cats and were/are much cheaper to produce. CA law needs to be ammended to allow engine original equipment to be replaced by modern technology.It is nice to be able to breathe cleaner air, see without tearing, run without aching lungs, and to see Catalina or the mountains every day. All of that and I can buy a 500+ horsepower car that burns cleaner than the legendary elephant 426 street Hemi.
 
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