Timed or manifold vacuum advance?

Timed (port) vacuum or manifold vacuum?

  • Timed (port) Vacuum

    Votes: 38 47.5%
  • Manifold Vacuum

    Votes: 21 26.3%
  • No need for vacuum advance

    Votes: 9 11.3%
  • What's the difference?

    Votes: 12 15.0%

  • Total voters
    80
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blackhand

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So, timed (port) vacuum or manifold vacuum for vacuum advance distributors...

Which is better for economy, engine cooling, and off-idle response.

I've read so many conflicting arguments for both, each with their own valid points, that I thought a poll might be helpful.
 
manifold vacume is for a crummy running engine that has idle issues be it from a lumpy cam in where the tuner does not know how to modify the advance curve to maintain the high initial required to idle a big cam, or because the motor is mechanically failing/worn out.
Chevy had there own ideas about it, but look at chevy...they were the 1st mandated by the federal government to use smog pumps, chrysler was the last.

see when you are using manifold vacuum, you are engaging the vac advance at idle, but when you dip the throttle....the timing drops off to where ever the distributor initial is set to.
The timed port will activate the vac advance only when the throttle blades are opened beyond a certain point.
Its a band aid or the latter to welding up the slots [but only in the aspect of idling] cause with a welded slot the timing won;t drop off and you WILL make more power.
 
The correct answer is, it depends. In most cases, using the timed port on the carb would be the right choice. However, some performance or modifed carbs don't even have a functional timed port. Don at FBO sets up his distributors to use a manifold port. Using manifold vacuum creates a problem when it does pull in the vacuum advance at idle.
 
.......My buddy uses both mani and ported.....he swears by it...been doing that for 30 years.......i just use ported.............kim..........
 
see when you are using manifold vacuum, you are engaging the vac advance at idle, but when you dip the throttle....the timing drops off to where ever the distributor initial is set to.

That's the biggest advantage to timed vacuum that I can think of. As soon as you push the gas pedal past idle timing drops and you could end up with off-idle stumble. Also, if the carb and distributor were tuned correctly tuning was done with the vacuum line disconnected. If you attach the vacuum line to manifold vacuum the distributor will get a couple extra degrees advance at idle and your tuning will be off.

The one advantage of manifold vacuum that I've heard is that the extra timing at idle will keep engine temperatures down. It seems that a little more advance in some cases causes the mixture to burn at a lower temperature. The underlying assumption to this argument is that the engine is running lean at idle, or at least leaner than it is during acceleration.

Anyone else care to weigh in?
 
For 99% of cars it's the timed spark vacuum port. For the other 1% it's no vacuum advance at all. It is just slap incorrect to put the vacuum can on manifold vacuum.
 
If the carb and distributor were tuned correctly tuning was done with the vacuum line disconnected. If you attach the vacuum line to manifold vacuum the distributor will get a couple extra degrees advance at idle and your tuning will be off.


Anyone else care to weigh in?

Our posts cover everything that matters on this subject.
 
Vacuum advance is for economy only. The mechanical advance is for power.
 
Vacuum advance is for economy only. The mechanical advance is for power.

Disagree. Deleting the vacuum advance does more than worsen fuel economy, it also negatively affects driveability. Remember, the combustion chamber and the fuel and oxygen molecules in it don't know or care what mechanism advances the spark. The effect of spark advance (however it is achieved), up to a point determined by the characteristics of the engine and fuel and some other factors, is to increase power output. If all you ever do is floor the accelerator, then vacuum advance won't do anything for you. But if you spend any time at part throttle, vacuum advance will do a great deal for you.

Let's spend an afternoon doing back-to-back test drives in street-driver cars with the vacuum advance present and base timing set at nominal spec, vacuum advance present, base timing at nominal spec, and mechanical advance curve increased, vacuum advance absent and no other adjustments, vacuum advance absent and base timing advanced, and vacuum advance absent, base timing nominal, and mechanical advance curve increased.

The second-case setup (vacuum advance present, base timing nominal, mechanical curve increased) will in most cases not only get the best fuel economy but also be the most driveable, with the most responsive part-throttle acceleration and most stable cruise. The first-case setup (vacuum advance present, nominal timing, stock mechanical curve) will in most cases be second-best.

blackhand said:
It seems that a little more advance in some cases causes the mixture to burn at a lower temperature.

There are several means by which an advanced spark at idle causes lower engine temperature and a retarded spark at idle causes higher engine temperature, but this what you say is not one of them. An advanced spark tends to raise the idle speed, so the idle speed screw on the carburetor is backed off to bring the idle speed back down. Because the throttle plate isn't open as far, there's less air joining the fuel pulled in via the carburetor's idle circuit; the mixture for any given idle speed is richer and richer mixtures burn cooler. In some cases, factory-installed equipment (TIC valve) sent manifold vacuum to the distributor vacuum advance when the engine reached a certain temperature; this increased the idle speed which in turn increased the speed of the water pump and radiator fan, cooling things down.
 
I'll have to ask Don at FBO sometime why he insists you use manifold vacuum instead of ported with his dizzy's - although talking to him can be a challenge in itself. It does go against reason: manifold=high vacuum at idle with a drop when you crack the throttle.
 
I'll have to ask Don at FBO sometime why he insists you use manifold vacuum instead of ported with his dizzy's - although talking to him can be a challenge in itself.

Yeah, I get that sense from reading his book. And I'm not impressed with his ignition system, either; when I get time I'm going back to my standard HEI upgrade with appropriately dialled-in mechanical and vacuum advance curves.
 
Our posts cover everything that matters on this subject.

I hope that is not as arrogant as it sounded to me, because I thought your post on this subject made little sense


manifold vacume is for a crummy running engine that has idle issues be it from a lumpy cam in where the tuner does not know how to modify the advance curve to maintain the high initial required to idle a big cam, or because the motor is mechanically failing/worn out.
Chevy had there own ideas about it,.


I'm not sure I agree with any of that, or that manifold vacuum will somehow "fix" a "crummy running engine" From what I remember, Chev/ GM also pretty much also used ported vacuum during the same time periods that Mopar did


....when you are using manifold vacuum, you are engaging the vac advance at idle, but when you dip the throttle....the timing drops off to where ever the distributor initial is set to............

But BOTH intake AND ported vacuum drop under heavy throttle


Its a band aid or the latter to welding up the slots [but only in the aspect of idling] cause with a welded slot the timing won;t drop off and you WILL make more power.

I'm really not tryin' ta be a smart ***. This last part makes no sense, to me.
 
To give TurdFerguson the benefit of the doubt, when I saw his statement Our posts cover everything that matters on this subject it read to me as if he was just saying that pretty much the whole range of opinion has been covered by the various posts in this thread. That might or might not be what he actually meant, but it's how it hit me.

One point that hasn't yet been covered is that all ported spark advance is not the same. The distributor vacuum advance hose always left the factory connected to the spark advance port on the carburetor, but where the port went from there on in varied according to the vehicle configuration. Have you ever found yourself looking in the FSM or FPC at the two carbs for manual vs. automatic transmission for any given year/model/engine, and found yourself unable to find any difference in specs? Same jets, same step-up rods, same choke kick adjustment, same float setting, same venturi size, etc., right on down the line, but different manufacturer numbers and Chrysler part numbers for the whole carburetor? In cases like that, the difference is usually the location of the inner end of the spark port in the throttle body with respect to the throttle plate as adjusted for the factory-specified engine idle speed at the factory-specified base ignition timing. If the port is above the closed throttle, there's no spark advance until the driver steps on the gas, at which point the advance jumps up and then tapers down as the driver presses the accelerator further down. If the port is below the closed throttle, there's spark advance at idle which begins to taper down as the driver opens the throttle. In a 1978 emission control and driveability manual published by Chrysler, they go into some detail on this, complete with cutaway images of two throttle bodies, one with each type of spark port routing. There's specific, documented evidence of the two types of porting as early as 1975. I've seen differing spark port locations in the throttle bore as early as 1960, though I don't have specific info from Chrysler saying so.

So, some carburetors are set up such that the distributor vacuum advance sees full manifold vacuum even at idle. This, according to factory service literature, was done to give better driveability in certain vehicle configurations with automatic transmission. And there's at least one vendor of performance ignition systems for Mopars who advocates running unported manifold vacuum to the distributor. So I decided to try an experiment on my '73. This car has a Carter BBS carburetor, a 1976 distributor (the one for the 2bbl engine, with the good advance curves), and no EGR. The carburetor's vacuum advance port does not have vacuum at idle. So I capped that port and connected the vacuum advance to manifold vacuum. Left it there for a couple of weeks to get a good, solid idea of the changes. One immediately obvious change was an increase in idle speed; I had to back off the idle speed screw. No surprise there.

Driveability did not improve, it got worse. Specifically, the car's pickup sagged slightly but detectably immediately after the 1-2 and 2-3 shift, and light-throttle acceleration in 2nd and 3rd gear (well short of causing the trans to kick down) was noticeably mushier. Once I put the advance hose back on the carburetor and readjusted the idle speed, the sag and mush went away.

My guess is that the driveability improvement with manifold vacuum spark advance is specific to the underhood configuration. Mine differs substantially from the setups on which manifold spark advance was used; I have no EGR, my base timing is about 8°, etc. Still, I can't help wondering why I remember seeing manifold vacuum at the spark port of various more-or-less stock carburetors on my '62 Lancer back when it was my dad's car. I'm pretty sure the vacuum porting particulars depended in the pre-emissions era on manual/automatic transmission, but back then I think it was manual-trans cars that got porting closer to manifold-vacuum-at-idle.

FWIW, YMMV, BYOB.
 
...........One point that hasn't yet been covered is that all ported spark advance is not the same.......................There's specific, documented evidence of the two types of porting as early as 1975. I've seen differing spark port locations in the throttle bore as early as 1960..................... So I decided to try an experiment on my '73......................Driveability did not improve, it got worse.




My guess is that the driveability improvement with manifold vacuum spark advance is specific to the underhood configuration. Mine differs substantially from the setups on which manifold spark advance was used; I have no EGR, my base timing is about 8°, etc. Still, I can't help wondering why I remember seeing manifold vacuum at the spark port of various more-or-less stock carburetors on my '62 Lancer back when it was my dad's car. I'm pretty sure the vacuum porting particulars depended in the pre-emissions era on manual/automatic transmission, but back then I think it was manual-trans cars that got porting closer to manifold-vacuum-at-idle.


I no longer have access to such things as the tune--up guides you used to get, which specified such things as distributor total mechanical and vacuum advance, as well as how much vacuum the thing needed, but I'd bet this figures in, as well as such things as temp controlled vacuum switches for emissions, and you mentioned EGR.

I don't even remember how it was set up, but Ford used to have a WEIRD setup called something like "Load-a-matic." That thing could dig you a hole really quick if you didn't read the book. My recollection (dim) is that you might have set the timing on those with vacuum connected.
 
I hope that is not as arrogant as it sounded to me, because I thought your post on this subject made little sense

It makes perfect sense to those with a brain



I'm not sure I agree with any of that, or that manifold vacuum will somehow "fix" a "crummy running engine" From what I remember, Chev/ GM also pretty much also used ported vacuum during the same time periods that Mopar did

You're worng, and I don't mean fix it the right way as I do say BANAID!!!!!!! geeeezzzuzzz people...
Idle issues caused by poor carb tune, malfunctioning carb, low cyl psi other things like lumpy cams that will not idle with stock'ish initial timing settings, weak ignition..and I was pointing out a scenario where someone would substitute manifold vac for a tailored 'higher initial' in order to set throttle blade position low enough to avoid idling on the main circuit....but when you open the throttle the vac go's away...and so does all that added timing....and if you can't figure out what that means.....:wack:
& Look at the variations over the yrs w/chevy...thats all I'll say on that.



But BOTH intake AND ported vacuum drop under heavy throttle

Yes, I'm glad we both understand this...thats kinda why I say to avoid the bandaid I mentioned earlier

I'm really not tryin' ta be a smart ***. This last part makes no sense, to me.

I was speaking of unmodified curves in stock distributors and the scenario mentioned above.
And no I did not mean to say sound as if I were saying that vac increased with pushing the pedal down...
 
ported advance for everything but a race car. and dont get the dizzy advance port mixed up with the egr port. I found a way to check for the correct port kind of accidentally. My bud was messing around with his old chevelle with the Q jet and I happened to look in on him. he was wondering why his mileage was falling off.( Evidently he had mixed up the two vacuum ports, the dizzy was hooked up to the egr port and the port for the dizzy in the carb had a hose going to the rear pullof on his carb.) I looked at it and was wondering why the rear pullof was not operating. After all he had about 18 inches of vacuum at idle. So then he "blips" the throttle and the rear pullof starts working as soon as he got above idle rpms. I immediatly figured out what was going on. He had the rear pullof hooked to the ported vac source. So I figure that would be a good way to find the correct port for the ported advance. Just hook up suspected advance to a vacuum operated accesory that is easily viewable(like a pulloff) and if you have the correct port it will start to activate at the "off idle" rpm.
 
It makes perfect sense to those with a brain

At least now I do know that your post is as condescending and arrogant as I first thought. Your comment is not appreciated. I'm attempting to get you to clarify what I think is a really poor answer.

I don't need advice from you on attaining a brain surgeon.
 
I was pointing out a scenario where someone would substitute manifold vac for a tailored 'higher initial' in order to set throttle blade position low enough to avoid idling on the main circuit....but when you open the throttle the vac go's away...and so does all that added timing.....

It would have been VERY helpful if you had simply said this and been done with it.
 
At least now I do know that your post is as condescending and arrogant as I first thought. Your comment is not appreciated. I'm attempting to get you to clarify what I think is a really poor answer.

I don't need advice from you on attaining a brain surgeon.

If you simply asked me to explain and which part, that would of helped me better judge where you were coming from, my bad then.

To me...you make it look 'to the unknowning user' like I was full of it.


And honestly....there was not much more say about it, but run ported vacuum.

Then some guy tells a long story and people worship him for saying basically zelch beyond what was said in the 1st few couple of posts, its a history lesson.... but it still leads to =run ported vacuum.

Thats just my take.

take care.
 
heres the deal...

You want as much initial timing as it will start with 'fully warmed up'

Test drive trying different total/full advance setting till the best performance is achieved without detonation/ping

find a way to have both, be it by welding up the slots in the distributor or a bushing in your msd distributor [mine is custom]
Now set the rate of advance to suit the power band & or convertor stall [if equipt]
Basically have it full advance as soon as it can with out ping/detonation

Thats where the performance comes from.

If you want to get better mph during cruise [not acceleration] run the vacuum advance can.

If the car run cooler with the vac advance it might be because you don;t have enough total to begin with.
 
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