Timken rear wheel bearing installation

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dartley

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Anyone here offer recommendation for re-installing orig equip Timken rear wheel tapered roller bearings in an 8.75" that has been "upgraded" to 4.5" bolt pattern and "Green" ball bearings? Should I expect a decent shop to "know" how to do this?

First off, I have a '71 factory service manual that describes the procedure but I doubt I'd be able to do this at home because I have no place to leave the car safely while the new bearings and sleeves are getting pressed at the machine shop.

I read and re-read "Mopar Action's" recent articles on some upgrade using Ford truck tapered roller bearings, but I really don't understand it, so I am dismissing it as a valid possibility. Am I wrong to do this?

And again ... Should I expect a decent shop to "know" how to do this?
 
You could pull the axles at home and take them to any competent machine shop. Course, you'll want to have the correct bearings, races, locking collars and adjuster in hand. Without the factory adjuster which must go on one axle before the bearings, changing back will do you no good. Thrust buttons will also have to go back in the center of the pumpkin between the axles.
 
Are the axles stock or aftermaket? If the axles are Yukons you can't use Timken bearings and have to run the "green" bearings. Other aftermarket axles can also be "green" bearing only type axles.


Chuck
 
No I really can't do this at home, as I said, because I have no secure place to keep the car during the time the axles are out. So equipment aside, that's not really what I am asking.

I appreciate you answers, but what I want to know is:

1. In your opinions, as technicians, should I expect to be able to locate a competent shop that can do this for me? I am not asking if I "will" be able to find one, of course ... just if there is a reasonable chance of it IYO?

2. And now that you answered about the aftermarket shafts ... what should I be able to do to keep the 4.5" bolt pattern but go back to tappered rollers?

3. I'm sure some here have read R.E.'s articles in MA mag ... is it any clearer to any or you than it is to me (which, as I said it is not)?


EDIT>>> I am just now thinking that if I call Andy's R&R, perhaps they could offer some suggestions about this ... maybe they can sell me the complete axles with the bearings and offer info on a shop they know near me that has a good rep - think I might try that. But just the same, keep your info coming if you will please.
 
The reason some aftermarket axles and Yukons won't work with Timken bearings is they are a little shorter than the stock axles and there is not enough adjustment in the stock adjusters to contact the buttons or cross shaft in the third member. I have not checked this personally, Randys R & R told me this and they are usually right on the money.


Chuck
 
Okay thanks, but short of calling R&P - which I really can't do right now - what would you think my chances are of getting this done, as per my prev questions?
 
I think what Chuck is telling you is the FIRST thing you have to find out is what your axel lengths are.
Until you determine this, you can’t make a change because for adjustable tapered bearing to work the axles have to bear against each other.
IF they are too short they (or the thrust block) won’t push against each other.
This is why tapered bearing are preferred for street use, as the bearing will take a side load.
I know Moser engineering page has some dimensions for help or maybe someone can give you that dimension.
Secondly I would image you could do the job.
Got a chisel and a press?
Just be sure and protect the seal surface.

It isn’t rocket science.
I’ve even done it.
 
Thanks for the vote of confidence, but no I have no intension of doing it for the one reason mentioned. Note - I am not afraid of the job, I just have no place to do the job and keep the car safe overnight when it's not finished. And no, I have no press.

And I do understand the other replies ... I will assume - for the time being - that I CAN NOT use the axle shafts I have then. Under this assumption, does anyone have any reason to think that a good shop will be able to do this job for me, if I get all the stuff I need from Randy's?
 
Well, I hope you find someone local that will help you out..
It stinks not having anywhere to work on you car.
I got tired of pounding on things and bought one of those small Chinese made presses from Harbor Freight. Maybe 99 bucks.
Worth every penny for changing seals and stuff
 
I would probably do that, but I don't work on my car very often ... hey, I hardly even have time to drive it ... so if I bought the press I'd probably use it like twice in my lifetime. I do work on the car - it's not that I never do any work on it - it's just that the stuff I do has to be done in one day ... I'm not going to leave it out of the garage at night, especially not on stands with the axles out.

No, I was hoping someone would have been through this themselves before and would be able to relate their experiences with shops local to them being - or not being - able to do the job (knowing what needs doing and having the right tools). Even if I was going to do the job myself I would still need that factory gauge, right?

Alternatively, I was hoping someone might have gone through the two articles in Mopar Action and either tried to replicate R.E.'s solution, or at least felt that they had a good handle on exactly what he was talking about.

Thanks,
 
OldVart said:
dartley, my question is WHY you are so intent on changing from your current Green bearings to the Timken style? Are you having problems with your current setup?
Click to expand...

I am not a drag racer - this is a street car and I like a car that goes around corners at least as well as one that goes straight ... it's set up to do that and I don't want to loose an axle one day.
 
I have had the green bearings on my street car for over 4 years with thousands of miles and not had any issues......that green bearing can't be used on the street rumor is complete garbage. Hell more than half of the new vehicles on the road now don't have tapered bearings in the rear axles. It's a BS rumor and it needs to die. The green bearings are just fine for your car.
 
the green bearings from the mid 90's era are supposed to be the culprits of the rumor. they have since changed and they work great. i have had them on my cuda since about 2000, moser brand, and not a single problem.
 
redfastback said:
the green bearings from the mid 90's era are supposed to be the culprits of the rumor. they have since changed and they work great. i have had them on my cuda since about 2000, moser brand, and not a single problem.
Click to expand...

That is exactly right :thumblef:
 
From a previous post......

I kept encountering opposing opinions on whether the Green 8-3/4 axle bearing were suitable for street use. So I wrote to Bearing Technologies Ltd. to get the story directly from the source.

So here's the scoop:
The question is whether or not the RP400 bearing kit for Mopar 8-3/4" axles is suitable for street car applications. There has been a lot of discussion that since your catalog lists it under "Racing" that racing is the only application. Some have also said that the RP400 doesn't have enough lateral retention for street use. Others have said that they have several thousand miles of street use with the RP400s in their axles and have encountered no problem. Can you clear up the issue for me?

Dear XXXXXXXXX,

I received your question about the RP400. I'll try to answer this to the best of my ability. The original intent of the RP400 designed by the Green Bearing Company was meant as a replacement for the original taper bearings in the rear end of Chrysler / Mopar applications. It was made for street vehicles, as were all of Green's automotive bearings. Over time these products became favorites of custom axle manufacturers such as Moser Engineering, Strange Engineering and Mark Williams Enterprises. Green, being a job shop, manufactured a multitude of bearings for these outfits and started categorizing them as "Racing" bearings due to the fact that the products were becoming popular in that application.

There are a lot of these bearings on the road in both street applications as well as on track applications. As far as performance, all I can say is that these have been a staple in our product line with no revisions / issues for a long time. The experts on the performance of the product in various applications would be Moser or Strange. If you would like to contact them, you have to ask specifically for the RP400 with the fixed flange because there is a modified version (MO400) which was designed by request for Moser and has a slide over flange with a snap ring retainer.

You can visit www.moserengineering.com or call 260-726-6689 for more information.

Thank you for your interest in our products.

Best Regards,
Brian Graziadei

Bearing-Technologies LTD
 
Dusterb318 said:
That is exactly right :thumblef:
Click to expand...

Guys I appreciate your council and I certainly want to believe you are right ... it'd be a heck of a lot easier for me. But if this rumor is just a rumor, then who started it ... Rick E? Because to this day he says he doesn't like em.
 
dartley said:
Guys I appreciate your council and I certainly want to believe you are right ... it'd be a heck of a lot easier for me. But if this rumor is just a rumor, then who started it ... Rick E? Because to this day he says he doesn't like em.
Click to expand...

r.e. also says he doesn't like the alterktion, but does like xv motorsports aluminum k member. why? how vastly different are they???? i know he is SAE and i value his opinion alot, but sometimes his opinions suck.
 
There are some guys that don't like em......One of my best friend's hates em.....he always jokes that he is gonna tow me home when they fail.....he's still waiting. I laugh at him cause I don't have to mess with that end play adjustment. It's like anything else.....some people like em....some people don't. You can have an opinion but you need all the facts to form an opinion not just hearsay. Now if you had any early set and they failed on you then I can see how you wouldn't like em. Fact is almost all new cars and trucks on the road now use the "green" style bearings on the rear now...not the tapered cause very few know how to adjust them properly and thats why the aftermarket axle manufacturers went that way as well.....much easier to install and an almost 0% chance of a bearing failure do to a misadjusted pre-load setting.
 
I remember reading too that he does not seem too fond of "most" of these coil over units. I just took a look both though, and granted a quick look-see via my browser is not particularly conclusive, but the XV unit does appear to be more substantial.

One nice thing about these units is that - theoretically at least - you should not have any more alignment problems ... er, that is unless and until they bend ;-) ... the stock unit have inherently poor alignment holding values. I have the Moog kit on mine and that seems to help, but the torsion bar setup is IMO a better design than is the coil over. Indeed the Old Mopar front end is probably one of the most adjustable ever ... for good and for bad.

Me, I don't think I'd ever even be temped to go to one of these replacement front ends unless I could get one for comparable $$$ - that's a ways off I'd say.

As to the ball bearing rears on most new cars ... while I was aware that "some" new cars used them - I was under the impression that was mostly FWD cars. I do know that the orig '64 Mustangs had similar setups, but they too were not the best.

I think the point is that the Green units are prolly fine for the most part ... but for serious handling work I still have to side with Rick on the logic of tapered being superior in design. But as you guys pointed out - and just as I feared - I will probably have difficulty getting someone who can competently install them. So I suppose for now - pending that call to Drivetrain specialists or Randy's ... I'll hang.
 
Most newer vehicles don't use a bearing like a "green" bearing they use a bearing that uses the axle as the inner race, which is much worse. The main reason that the "green" was labeled as a race only bearing is it was first used in drag racing applications because you can't adjust the tapered bearing pre-load with a spool. Then it was realized that it was a suitable replacement for the street also. About the only place that a "green" bearing doesn't work well and is not recommened is in road race or circle track applications because of the heavy side loading. A tapered bearing will carry more load than a ball bearing will in this case. I myself prefer tapered bearings, but will tell you I have both style bearings in my cars.

There is one thing that should put any doubters at ease, 7 1/4's came from the factory with a "green" style bearing and how many of those things are on the road? more than we can count.


Chuck
 
While I will agree the tapered is a better design over all there isn't anything wrong with the ball bearing. If you were building an auto cross car or a car for drifting then yeah the tapered would be better......but honestly if you were building a car for those types of racing you'd probably be going to an independant type rear not a solid axle. My 3/4 Cummins Truck and my Wife's Durango both use the ball type rear axle bearings and have not had a failure.....and like Chuck said they are worse than the Green Style......now that I have said that I will have to fix one of them....you will be fine with the green bearings.
 
Dusterb318 said:
While I will agree the tapered is a better design over all there isn't anything wrong with the ball bearing. If you were building an auto cross car or a car for drifting then yeah the tapered would be better......but honestly if you were building a car for those types of racing you'd probably be going to an independant type rear not a solid axle. My 3/4 Cummins Truck and my Wife's Durango both use the ball type rear axle bearings and have not had a failure.....and like Chuck said they are worse than the Green Style......now that I have said that I will have to fix one of them....you will be fine with the green bearings.
Click to expand...


Well thanks again ... this is probably the most detailed information I have yet gotten on this subject. And no, I shant be autocrossing the Duster any time soon ... though I might try a few donuts in the odd vacant parking lot.

Isn't it strange how much controversy there is over so many of these things ... for example, I started a thread over on Allpar just a coupla weeks ago about the best motor oil for older flat tappet cam engines (mine is a circa 1992 Commando crate Mopar Perf 360, for example), and as yet there is no unilateral agreement about the best oil (natural or synth) that has the zinc needed. Thus far the best answer seems to just add a can of STP.

Then there's the ongoing debate about silicone vs Dot4 brake fluid (and There R.E. seems to take a generally unpopular stand as well).

At any rate, I appreciate the time you guys took/take to help folks like me out - guys that know just enough about mechanics to get themselves confused ... but hopefully out of trouble. Thanks.
 
Since Bearing Technologies couldn’t give a report of their products “performance”, and referred that question to the “experts”, perhaps the question to have asked is what type of ball bearing the RP400 is.

http://www.engineersedge.com/bearing_types_pic.htm

Then one could make one’s own decision on use based on the facts.
How someone sells a product is his or her call.
We know marketing is real force.
I’ve seen tapered roller bearings fail.
Proves nothing.:argue:
Think I’ll swap everything to ball bearings.:thumblef:

Again, good luck on your quest.
 
adriver said:
Since Bearing Technologies couldn’t give a report of their products “performance”, and referred that question to the “experts”, perhaps the question to have asked is what type of ball bearing the RP400 is.

http://www.engineersedge.com/bearing_types_pic.htm

Then one could make one’s own decision on use based on the facts.
How someone sells a product is his or her call.
We know marketing is real force.
I’ve seen tapered roller bearings fail.
Proves nothing.:argue:
Think I’ll swap everything to ball bearings.:thumblef:

Again, good luck on your quest.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that information. Does that mean that you asked this manufacturer yourself?
 
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