Totally Dissapointed!!!!!

-
Your right Guitar. They don't have a floor dyno and as it seems there are many opinions on oil type. The smoke color is closer to white. Early on we had black smoke due to carb problems and yes the plugs were fouled. I'm on the 3rd set of plugs and have the fourth in hand. Plugs look good with the new carb. I may pull that intake and check the match. I pulled off an Offy four barrel and went to the eddy. May switch back if ports dont match.

Just for the record i'm a building contractor and if i don't know how to build something i let the client know. Never ran across that situation yet but you never know. I tell them if they want it done right i'm in. Half assed ,i'm out. Get someone else. I've got every engine and tranny mopar book but that don't make me a mechanic. When i come up against a problem i explore all the avenues and then pick the best and throw money in that direction. Luckily i haven't ran out. YET

I'll do a comp test today and let you know. How can i determine to ratio?
 
I'm gonna throw out a few more questions here.

1) You said you weren't running a PCV valve? Why the heck not? Running without one would be enough to make a new Honda leak oil!

2) This is related to the first question, and has been asked before. Do you have a baffle? Most aftermarket valve covers fall into the "if it dont go, chrome it" category. If you can see rocker arms through the PCV hole, it's gonna suck oil. Try putting the factory valve covers back on to see if the smoking goes away. Besides, unfortunately most guys today have no idea who M/T was. Too bad that.

3) Are you leaking/sucking oil internally? You might be pulling oil from the lifter valley, especially if the heads were milled. Here's the deal, running 360 heads on a 318 requires a pretty healthy cut to reduce chamber size. (What was the chamber size anyhow, your builder SHOULD know this, and should have provided you with such data, THAT is how you determine compression ratio). Now, if the heads were cut on the deck surface, the manifold face needs to be cut as well. If it was not cut, or cut the wrong amount, the manifold will not seal well. If the heads get cut any amount at all, DO NOT use the rubber/cork end rail gaskets, just RTV, or the manifold may not fit at all. You builder should be able to tell you EXACTLY what he removed from each face.

Anyhow, here's how to check for vacuum leaks into the lifter valley: Start engine and cover the crankcase breather inlet (and/or oil filler depending on your valve cover design) and allow a vacuum to develop in the crankcase. If the idle speed changes or smooths out, you have internal vacuum leaks. If the crankcase will not pull a vacuum, you have a PCV problem, or haven't sealed all the vents. If there is air "blowing out" of the breather, you have trashed rings and there is no way to ever make the engine produce power.

4) I would be really suspect of any shop recommending 20w50 for a street engine, especially if they tell me it is to "take up" clearances! Just what were the bottom end clearances anyhow? These should be on the same "builders notes" page with the chamber size, piston deck clearance, head cuts (and associated custom pushrod length) that the builder gave you with the engine. Your builder did give you such data right? They did measure things right? Clearances and leaks are not the same.

Thick oil IS NOT always a good thing. It takes A LOT of power to pump, flows like crap, drains back slow, is hard for rings to control, etc... 15w 40 is about max, and 10w 30 is probably better for streeet use. Look in you owners manual and see what MOPAR called for. Face it, these engines ran long periods of time using the oils available in the 70's and 80's. Lubricant technology has come a long way since then. Compare todays oils to the best oil available when these cars were made. You simply can't buy oil that bad today.

It sounds like you may have a few things going on here. AVOID SHOTGUN MAINTENANCE!!! Work one issue at a time. Make one change, evaluate, take notes, etc. If you change more than one thing at a time, you will never know what the problem was (or if you fixed one problem and created another).

Oh, and DO NOT under any circumstances try to dyno a smoking motor! I would not trust anybody who would put a smoking motor on his dyno. (Unless I was getting a cut of the ticket sales for the "exploding motor show") It takes very little oil contamination to send an engine into destructive detonation (think Diesel), far less than is required to make smoke.

White smoke might mean water. Is the water level going down? Does the smoke stop if you loosen the radiator cap to the "pressure relief" notch?
 
Builder recommended a vented valve cover and showed me his motor and said if the pcv don't work go back to vented.

I was running 10-40 Castrol GTX and he recommended 20-50. Hell, i've got a case of every thing. It's not like i can't get it.

Water level is fine. No loss of fluid.

Headed out now to do a comp. check.
 
C130 Chief said:
Look in you owners manual and see what MOPAR called for. Face it, these engines ran long periods of time using the oils available in the 70's and 80's. Lubricant technology has come a long way since then. Compare todays oils to the best oil available when these cars were made. You simply can't buy oil that bad today.


Oil has changed a lot since these cars were new. And not for the better for the old/flat tappet cars. Hense why diesel oil is very popular due to a high zinc content that is better suited for our flat-tappet cams...Many of the new oils are of course taylored to newer cars. It's very wise/suggested to break in any flat-tappet motor these days with diesel oil due to the break-in of the cam being so hard on the cam/lifters.
 
True on the zinc bit, (incidentallyI run synthetic Rotella in my truck). Some ZDP based additives have shown up out there as a result. Everybody has their own pet snake oil, and I have used this stuff for years www.energyrelease.com

I would be curious what your engine builders logic behind a vented, non PCV setup? As well as his 20w 50 logic.

Without knowing static compression ratio and therefore cranking cylinder pressure, a compression test won't tell you a lot aside from indicating a mechanical defect in a single cylinder
 
Here is that PCV filter setup I'm running if there were any questions on that. Here is how much it's caught with a BAFFLED pcv after a couple months of use..Just changed mine out today.

-Mike

100_1032.jpg
 
Goody: Picked up a filter as you show yesterday and will get some clear tubing tomorrow.

Did the comp. check and here's the #s
Starting on th efront drivers side and going back they are as follows.
140 150 145 130
Pass side front to back
150 140 150 145

Changed to new plugs and Storm will post pic of the 8 we took out so you can see the burn on em. None are real bad. Since changing the pcv there is much less smoke and it may be burning the oil out of the exhaust system. Tomorrow i'll check timing and then go on to the carb.

Wish i had some of you guys for neighbors. I guess you can't live next to everybody.
 
Depending on how well it idles, some shops will say lose the PCV, as it's adding oil vapors and that it's a vaccum leak on an engine that doesnt need the help. I disagree, and always run a PCV. I havent gotten to the level of needing an evac system, but I'm sure eventually I will. All PCVs are not the same iether. If the one you have really hurts the idle, a smaller oriface one will lket it idle better, and does much the same amount of pressure relief. The hardest one I ever wroked with is a stroked 2.4L Toyota with a hybrid turbo in a 4wd truck. It idles very roughly, and I had to buy 3-4 PCVs toget the best fit. If it's not stock, a stock one may not be what you need.
 
here are the plug pics, they were all fine. Looked more like too much fuel then anything else. They where white with a hint of tan on some of them.

Im005330.jpg
 
Are those plugs arranged the same as the comp ck above...that would put that dirty lookin plug in the 130..
 
Small Block said:
Goody: Picked up a filter as you show yesterday and will get some clear tubing tomorrow.

Did the comp. check and here's the #s
Starting on th efront drivers side and going back they are as follows.
140 150 145 130
Pass side front to back
150 140 150 145

Changed to new plugs and Storm will post pic of the 8 we took out so you can see the burn on em. None are real bad. Since changing the pcv there is much less smoke and it may be burning the oil out of the exhaust system. Tomorrow i'll check timing and then go on to the carb.

Wish i had some of you guys for neighbors. I guess you can't live next to everybody.


I would do a leak down test on the 130 pnd cyl
 
WAAAYYY too much carb.......been there.

My 360 had a Holley D/P on it..for about 20 minutes. After that it was decided real quick to go to a more conservative setup.

Now I've got a Carter 625 AFB on it. I also went to an FBO Stage II ignition/distributor system..well worth the money. My car runs 100% better than it did with the previous setup --> respringed distributor, Mopar Orange box, blaster II coil.
 
Goody: I put in one of the filters with clear tubing and the filter is laying on it's side and there is oil in the form of liquid in the filter case.

I do have a pcv valve in the drivers side rear and ran to th erear of carb and the oil filler cap in the pass side front which runs to the back of the breather.

New findings.......at 60 mph it has 60 lbs of oil pressure and stays that way ......until you put your foot in it for a few sessions and then it goes to 40 then to 30 and then even down to 20.......then you stop and go to an idle and then it fluctuates between 50 and 60 lbs of oil pressure. Tell me if i'm on the right track. Is my high volume oil pump ( Melling-MELM72HV) doing such a good job that it is pumping more oil up on the 360 heads than can drain down therefore lowering the level on the oil pan(hence the low oil pressure) and in doing so leaving so much oil on the heads that it is sending the oil out the pcv and into the carb thus creating smoke and a loss of oil. The valve covers are baffled. Is it necessary to enlarge oil drain holes in the heads and block to enable the rapid return of the oil to the pan? Reaching for straws.
 
Small Block said:
Goody: I put in one of the filters with clear tubing and the filter is laying on it's side and there is oil in the form of liquid in the filter case.

I do have a pcv valve in the drivers side rear and ran to th erear of carb and the oil filler cap in the pass side front which runs to the back of the breather.

New findings.......at 60 mph it has 60 lbs of oil pressure and stays that way ......until you put your foot in it for a few sessions and then it goes to 40 then to 30 and then even down to 20.......then you stop and go to an idle and then it fluctuates between 50 and 60 lbs of oil pressure. Tell me if i'm on the right track. Is my high volume oil pump ( Melling-MELM72HV) doing such a good job that it is pumping more oil up on the 360 heads than can drain down therefore lowering the level on the oil pan(hence the low oil pressure) and in doing so leaving so much oil on the heads that it is sending the oil out the pcv and into the carb thus creating smoke and a loss of oil. The valve covers are baffled.

My 383 did the same thing and it has a high volume oil pump. The oil you're running could be to viscous and isn't getting back to the sump quick enough, switch to Shell Rotella T 10-30. It's for diesels with zinc in it. The other problem is that your oil pan may not have baffles in it and under hard acceleration the oil is staying to the back of the pan. The other problem, and this was mine, are you running a Mopar windage tray. If so throw it away and buy a Milodon tray. The SB and BB Mopar trays don't have as many slits in them, compared to the Milodon, and the majority of the oil exits the back of tray instead of going straight down to the sump.

Before I changed trays my oil pressure would go from 70PSI down to 30PSI, under hard acceleration, and back up to 70PSI when I let off on it. Now it stays at 70PSI all the way to 6 grand.:evil2:
 
Fellas! There should not be raw oil running from your valve cover to your carb through your pcv. Especially with a freshly overhauled engine. Done correctly, engines should have 5% or less leakage after a short break-in.
Baffle the valve cover under the pcv. That is a must. Get rid of that big double pumper carb. For a clean running engine(up to a point) it is better to jet a carb up than to lean one down.Put on a smaller carb or a 600-650 vacuum secondary. Washing cylinder walls down with the wrong carb can cause smoking and ruin the rings. Make sure the timing and tune up is correct.
I would be afraid of the erratic compression on a new engine. Mis machined heads and intake can also be the cause of the problem. You may end up disassembling the thing to diagnose. It might have rings lined up. Good luck toolmanmike
 
Now we're gettin' somewhere. BTW, my 340 LOVES the 650 DP - match made in Mopar heaven...
 
Mike: Dissassembly is not out of the question. If the oil isn't getting back to the pan fast enough then will it be forced into the PCV? I will tear it down as soon as i exhaust all other avenues. I have a guy that i wouldn't mind paying to do just that.I'm going to copy this thread and give it to the engine builder and let him read this stuff. THE VALVE COVERS ARE BAFFLED UNDER ALL OPENINGS IN THE VALVE COVERS.

Ace: Give use your thoughts. You say now we're getting somewhere. What are you thinking. Please advise. Thanks
 
Hopefully something simple. I had a intake gasket go out of the 454 in my tool truck and it sucked oil like a big dog. It went from a quart a thousand to
a quart every hundred. I didn't notice much smoke, it aparently used it at highway speeds when the oil is splashing around more with rpm. If carb/tune-up/etc are all ok and nothing you've done has made any difference I would pull the intake and see what the gaskets look like. then pull the engine if you have to. You'll have to keep us posted. toolmanmike
 
Mike: I'm running 10-40 GTX. The oil consumption running it up and down from 50 to 90 is about a qt per 30 miles and as i stated before the filter is saturated with oil. It's the clear filter with clear line so i can see what's going on. I'm still leaning toward the High Volume oil pump as being the trouble. Headed for Springfield to take the boy some tuition money and i'll check back in when home. Thanks folks.
 
hi, I notice there is no mention of style or type of rings in motor. are they moly, cast, chrome, gapless top or second?????? need to know about this.
plus, if there is full groove main bearings in motor, no need for a high volume oil pump.
 
perfacar: That question on the rings has been ask here locally but i will know tonorrow. I looked on my bill and all that is listed is "Hastings Rings" . Engine kit is listed as Dodge 318 1967-73 Part 3 ZZZ21300MK "Silvolite". Pistons are Kieth Black 167.030. I'll post ring type tomorrow.
 
What ever posessed you to run a hi-vol pump? "More is better" mentality? Chevy guy told you you need one? No matter, hi-vol pumps can cause a lot of problems. I am guessing you are on the right track with your suspicion, and it has a lot to do with your issue.

Some thoughts to ponder in no particular order:

Lighter oil drains back much quicker, try 10w30, or 10w40.

Yes, a hi-vol pump will empty a stock pan in a 1/4 mile. Run an extra quart and see if that helps the pressure loss. This will not help the consumption obviously but may help diagnose pumping the pan dry.

Oil pressure drop at high RPM is also a symptom of excessive rod bearing clearance. Since your problem seems to be a function of time at high RPM, and not RPM alone, it sounds like you are emptying the pan.

Also, based on the fact that you are obviously moving oil through the PCV system, it sounds like you are filling the valve covers and the PCV is picking it up.

A qt in 30 miles is an obscene rate of consumption. Under normal driving in traffic, what is the consumption? Does it smoke? Detonation is a real concern running under load with this kind of consumption. You can destroy things fast if this happens. Running the pump dry can also wreck things real quick.

I would strongly consider switching back to a stock oil pump. While you have the pan down, consider popping off a rod cap or two just to have a look. The top shell will show detonation damage. A plastigauge clearance check of the whole bottom end wouldn't be unreasonable either, just to see what the clearances are.
 
I'm running a Mellings HV pump with 15W-40 Shell Rotella oil on my SB (with a stock pan). I don't have pressure fluctuations, oil loss, oil consumption or any other oil problems. I've got 50 psi @idle and 75 psi at 3000 rpm (cruise). I'm also running one PCV valve. To suggest his problems are oil pump related is off-base. I'd suspect excessive blow-by from poor ring seating. If the motor was put together and machined correctly, then this thread wouldn't exist. Run a leak down check and confirm the obvious.
 
-
Back
Top