Turn Signal Issues 63 Valiant

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Calliway

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Hi Everyone,
I am wondering if I can get some help with the logic on this signal issues I am working on. The car is a 63 Cdn Valiant 225cid, push button auto convertable. Manual brakes, manual steering and no hazard lights (not equipped)

I have changed the flasher.....

I was driving along when the flasher indicator on my dash came on and stayed on. It stays on unless I remove the bulb (lol). It stays on when the key is off and out as well.

When I got out of the car to look the front left indicator was staying on even with the car off, key out. I pulled the bulb thinking that was what was keeping the dash indicator lit. Dash indicator still lit.

I unplugged the signal lights where they tie into the underhood harness. There is 12.6 volts at the green wire to the left and the orange wire to the right despite the car being off and key out.

When I unplug both pigtails to the front signals the dash indicator turns off. I stripped back the whole loom under the car thinking I had some frayed wires or two touching inside the loom. Nothing. Wires looked real good. Where the wires plug into the firewall I unplugged the harness and measured the voltage at that clip. So on the firewall side I get the same 12.6 volts at both orange and green wires. So is there supposed to be 12 volts at the lights all the time and I have a bad ground or something with the front signal lights? Or do I have an issue on the inside of the car?

I pulled the steering wheel and checked the turn signal switch which looks ok. I unplugged the harness that goes up the steering wheel and the indicator light on the dash stays on so I know that it isn't in the switch.

Also does anyone have a link to a picture that shows what the little slides inside the switch should look like? I took the switch apart to clean it and now I get some other issues.

So could there be an issue with the headlight switch or the ignition switch? There is 12 volts at the dash plug for otherwise that light wouldn't be on.

Can anyone shed some light into this or give me a little logic as to what I am missing? I know I have a sketchy socket on one side so I am going to go get a socket replacement right now but because even when I unplug that socket from the harness I still have the issue I doubt its my main problem.

Any help is apprecaited.
 
With the firewall connector unhooked, and with the signal switch unhooked, here is the remaining circuit

You have the two signal wires from the bulkhead which each go to the signal switch connector

Each wire branches off and feeds up to the cluster to the signal indicators.

So it would SEEM that with the firewall and signal switch unhooked, that there is no way!!!

BUT WHAT if the cluster is not properly grounded? Can it be getting power somewhere? Does your cluster have a clock? I cannot think what would be powered with the key off, and with the light switch off, and with the signal switch disconnected.
 
Sorry.... it was late last night when I was doing this but I just double checked...

When I connect the bulkhead plug the dash light comes on with the switch plug from the steering wheel connected or not connected.

The dash light also comes on when I have one l/f signal light unplugged and the r/f signal light plugged in. When I disconnect the right the light goes off. Ground problem on the right? They are 1157 bulbs but with two wire sockets so I am assuming they ground through socket itself.
 
Update....I am going nuts..... the bulb in the left hand side stays on regardless of key on or key off.... no idea what is going on. any insight?

Oh and no, I don't have a clock in my instrument cluster. Amp, fuel, and temp.
 
You have found the "area of" the problem, so double check:

With BOTH the column / switch connector disconnected, and the bulkhead front harness disconnected, verify

the fact that you said earlier: That you have power on the green/ ??? that is left/ right signal wires feeding out of the bulkhead

THAT POWER should not be there.

If it is, you need to find out where it's coming from. It's either a problem in the under--dash harness, or a problem in the cluster.

With the above described situation, you SHOULD have two dead ended conductors, and the dead ended indicator lamps

So you have two identical circuits, left and right, and both consist of:

A wire dead -- ended at the disconnected signal switch on one end.-------------and on the other end the wire is dead -- ended at the bulkhead connector

Somewhere in that wire, a branch (Y) runs a wire up to the hot contact of the indicator socket, which is grounded.

So there is only two ways for that circuit to become powered, if conditions are as you describe:

As I mentioned, either a fused/ crossed condition in the harness, or the indicator sockets are somehow "un" grounded and receiving power from another circuit in the cluster

I'm betting on the cluster.

I'm not familiar with these early clusters. If you can round up a good clear photo of the rear of one and post it, might be able to give you some ideas.
 
67, Thank you. I will get some pictures for you. You are saying that with the key off there should not be 12v at the pigtails and that somewhere I have a connection that is crossing the wire and powering the signal light wires. I feel like I am missing something very simple.

Just as an recap and some things I have found out this afternoon:

I stripped the harness under the hood and I can find any cross connections under the hood. When I unplug the bulk head the power at the signal light pigtails is gone and the green light goes out on the dash. If the bulkhead is plugged in when I unplug the right pigtail the light goes out.

I unplugged the big round plug at the cluster and probed it for power. The green wire l/h turn signal, has power at it regardless if the bulk head is plugged in or not. The orange wire does not. Also the plug that goes up the column is unplugged.

So it makes me think that the issue is under the dash. I assume that because the signal lights also act as the marker lights when the headlights are on that possibly there is something wrong at the headlight switch as the headlights go on regardless of key on or off. Is there logic to that?
 
Marker lights??? I thought you said this is a ---63---?

The parking lights (should not BE any marker lights) on the older cars should be off with headlights on, unless someone has modified them.

But they are a separate filament/ circuit. And with the bulkhead connector unhooked, and still having power at the green? wire? This should eliminate any troubles there.

Mopar did this very simply on the newer cars. The headlight switch has an output for the tail lamps and a separate one for the parking lamps, which goes COLD on headlights.

They simply connected the parking lamps to the tail lamp switch terminal, so the parking lamps stay on with the headlights.

So lets recap:

With the bulkhead disconnected, and with the signal switch disconnected, and with the cluster disconnected, all three at the same time, you DO HAVE power on the green signal wire?

If this is true then you MUST have a crossover in the under-- dash harness.

Probably time to pull the cluster, start at the ammeter or the bulkhead connector, and examine the harness for heat damage, and if you see none, start untaping it a little at a time.
 
67 Dart,

I really can't thank you enough. By marker lights I meant the signal lights being on steady on the low filament when headlights on.

So I pulled the headlight switch just to find some broken wires, that I would assume had touched at some time as well as a cracked plug. I rewired the plug just to have the same issue that I started with....So I started following the wiring under the dash just to roll over the main harness to see that it has melted. Looks like I will be making up a new wiring harness....

What worries me is how did it happen... I had a voltage regulator go on me two weeks ago and replaced it. I wonder if it was putting to much amperage out or is this harness melt from the broken wires I found at the headlight switch.
 
I see and hear about more and more wiring problems, and most of it all gets back to one thing:

The exact points covered in the MAD article, IE

bulhead connector problems causing voltage drop, heating, and by virtue of LOW voltage back to the regulator, actually causes OVER voltage and over charging

Poor ammeter connections, and in some cases troubles within the ammeter itself

Other heat problems, such as sometimes, the headlight switch

Poor circuit protection, IE lots of "stuff" that is originally not fused

Read through this for a good overview, whether or not you perform the bypass:

http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/amp-gauges.shtml

Scroll down the page for the simplified diagram. (I actually do not remember if the 63's had the charging lines go through the bulkhead connector, or separate connections

Even Ma knew this was a problem, as if you know where to look, you can find documentation on "fleet", taxi, police, and heavy duty alternator installations, whereby the factory? dealer? actually ran the battery supply and charging lines through separate gromments on larger conductors.

It is CONCEIVABLE that a very simple one time scenario could cause this problem:

The battery went down, someone left the lights on, simple.

You start it up, maybe the alternator is a "little larger" than normal, and maybe the regulator supply buss (ignition run) is a little low, causing overvoltage.

You run the car for a long period --- like a 40 mile trip, and the constant high charging rate heats up the battery/ charging line in the harness, as well as the bulkhead connectors.
 
I will definatley read that article and thank you for the link. I will say that there is a newer alternator on the car. The car originally had a 35 amp alternator and I would assume this is the 60+ on it now with the dual field terminals. I have read that I can upgrade the regulator to the newer three prong electrical one and run a secondary field wire to the alternator.

Is it feasable that the older regulator isn't up to snuff for the newer alternator?

The car did die on me on the way home one night when I had the wipers on the headlights and heater on. That is when I found that the regulator had died. I charged the battery and put in the new regulator but maybe I didn't charge it enough.

Also the headlight switch wires were rubbed through with the green wire totally frayed, both pink wires had rubbed through and one of the two yellow wires had rubbed, frayed and disconnected. So I am hoping that is source of the issues. This weekend will be wiring up a new harness.
 
Well I yanked out all the melted wiring and ended up being about 4 wires that fused together. I replaced the wiring and when I wrapped everything back up I kept the amp meter wiring out of the loom. It was the black amp meter wire that was cooked the worst.

In the end the yellow/black stripe wire, the grey wire, the green wire, the black with white stripe wire and the 10guage amp meter black wire were cooked. I was shocked to see a 5 wire taped splice behind the dash but it is just what is in that mads article. Going to have to do away with that asap.

I buttoned everything back up, cleaned the bulk head connector, cleaned the tabs where the red and black 10 guage wires go through and started it up. The signal light issues is gone. The amp meter was good then it spiked so i shut the car off and hooked my mulitmeter to the battery and restated. It showed 17v at the battery and the field wire on the voltage reg would sit at 3v then spike off the scale and come back down.

The other issue is now I have to hold the ignition switch in the run position for the car to run. Never had to do that before....wiring or switch? Anyway to test it? I am looking for a manual and a wiring diagram as I type this....
 
I didn't realize you didn't have a manual or diagrams, good goin so far!!


You can download useable diagrams MyMopar:

These are not always entirely accurate, but a lot better than nothing

http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/1963/63ValiantA.jpg

http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/1963/63ValiantB.jpg


It appears that on your car? the battery feed and charging wire go through the bulkhead in separate feeds, so at least you don't have the typical bulkhead connector problem, I'm guessing, or at least they should be easier to repair.

Here's a 66 shop manual, but I don't know how close the wiring will be, so be careful:

http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/servicemanuals/1966_Plymouth_Service_Manual.zip

This manual does not follow the "dash" page numbering system as it should in your reader, so you'll have to play with page numbers

Electrical (chapter eight) starts page 189, and wiring diagram index page 289
 
Thanks for the links. I'll have a look at them when I at home tonight. The red 10 guage lead and the black 10 guage lead do go through the bulk head. They screw onto tabs sticking of the bulkhead connector instead of the spade terminals that are shown in the mads article. I cleaned up those tabs as the ones in the engine compartment were dirty and corroded. I am going to get rid of them all together eventually.


Well more testing and probing tonight...
 
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