V6 vs V8

[318willrun]

I kinda disagree, there's a good reason almost nobody makes a modern engine with wedge chambers and 2-valve heads except for GM and we all know how resistant that company is to trying new ideas. There's so much more potential for overall efficiency in the design of the new Hemis. Like rumblefish said the way to go for OEMs is to use short-duration roller cams with good lift and heavily R&D'd computer-designed ports that flow massive amounts of air even at low valve lifts. That's why a new Hemi will gain 100+ HP with just a cam swap. Combustion efficiency has also improved that's why you now see factory 10.5:1 engines that are made to run on regular or mid-grade gas.Remember the LA was designed as a quick & dirty lightweight replacement for the poly engines back in 1964. 50 years is an eternity when you're talking about technological advances. BTW of all the new tech features mentioned in this thread 4-valve heads are BY FAR the most significant efficiency improvement over the years. VVT, variable intakes etc. are secondary they actually don't do a whole lot on their own.

Disagree?? Tell Ford that when they dug the 5.0 out and added todays tech to it! Now they are one of the leaders in cheap, modern performance cars. The hemi chally and SS Camaro really have their hands full against the ancient old but renovated 5.0.....

 

[grumpuscreature]

And there hasn't been a Windsor 5.0 produced since, what, '95 or '96 when the Modular V8 came online with SOHC 2V and has since sprouted things like DOHC, 4V per cylinder, VVT, variable intake, etc...

 

[str12-340]

I copies this out a magazine a few months ago:
[FONT=&quot]This old Detroit iron that we are drawn to is the real thing, built from real steel milled in a real mill by real men. Those engines were cast in sand molds in a real foundry, from molten iron. They’re genuine carbureted, big-cube V-8s, not hybrids, not turbo-fours, not high tech sixes or high winding Euro V-12s. They are as big as the Montana sky, unrefined as a cage fight, crude as a biker bar, powerful as a deer rifle, and more fun than a roller coaster.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Other parts of the world have their own thing. The Brits make a fine DOHC straight six, and the Italians make great V-12s, but those are their things... Americans own the V-8. We are the V-8. It’s what we do, and it’s who we are. It’s as American as Philly and as tough as Detroit. Muscle cars are loud and tacky and crass and gaudy. I love that. It’s wonderful. It does my American soul good. Muscle cars are about as subtle as a tractor pull. But they’re American, and they speak to me. We are not polished and continental and manicured. We brag too much, we come on too strong, we shout too loud. But too much is just enough. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Real muscle cars don’t have to fake it or create some virtual fantasy. They’re loud and proud and the real deal. It’s not just a car. It’s not just a collection of parts. You own something powerful, something born of true American character, something special in all the world.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Tom Shaw, Muscle Car Review, May 2014[/FONT]

 

[dodge freak]

They claim V6 have 300 hp but get it up to a steady 90 mph and step on the gas...it sure doesn't go like 300 hp...I think HP ratings today are very inflated....here in 1970 they were underestimating HP, today they are overestimating...people just accept ever they are told

Well we got these electric speedos that move when your foot goes to the floor--even if the car doesn't seem to be picking up more speed...these newer cars fool you...some new cars use the radio to help out with the exhaust sounds...the auto makers go all out to make the newer cars feel quicker then they really are

 

[dodge freak]

Aluminum heads are why newer engines are 10.5 to 1....real muscle engines had 11 to 1 with iron heads,,those are all history, I don't think any new engine has iron head--well maybe those semi trucks still do

 

[Tech857]

Disagree?? Tell Ford that when they dug the 5.0 out and added todays tech to it! Now they are one of the leaders in cheap, modern performance cars. The hemi chally and SS Camaro really have their hands full against the ancient old but renovated 5.0.....

The coyote 5.0 in the new mustangs shares nothing other than the displacement with the old motor. It is a modular 32v dual vvt engine. I drove a new Mustang a couple weeks ago it is very impressive.

 

[dodge freak]

There is nothing in common anymore expect it has 4 wheels, everything else has been changed.

Yeah maybe these newer cars drive pretty good but then get in a real 4.10 gear muscle car that runs an honest 13 in the quarter....you will find it eats up more pavement quicker....don't go by how it sounds or how it feels, look out the window and see how far you go in a few seconds...thats what really counts..not how fast the speedo moves but how far the car moves down the road

 

[rumblefish360]

Aluminum heads are why newer engines are 10.5 to 1....real muscle engines had 11 to 1 with iron heads,,those are all history, I don't think any new engine has iron head--well maybe those semi trucks still do

Then again, in days gone past, there was also fuel to feed them.
My wife had an Oldsmobile with a 425 labeled on the pie tin reading "Ultra High Compression", "Super Rocket" & "Use Preimum Fuel Only" @ what I remember as listed @ 11-1.
Nice engine!

 

[318willrun]

They claim V6 have 300 hp but get it up to a steady 90 mph and step on the gas...it sure doesn't go like 300 hp...I think HP ratings today are very inflated....here in 1970 they were underestimating HP, today they are overestimating...people just accept ever they are toldWell we got these electric speedos that move when your foot goes to the floor--even if the car doesn't seem to be picking up more speed...these newer cars fool you...some new cars use the radio to help out with the exhaust sounds...the auto makers go all out to make the newer cars feel quicker then they really are

I feel the same..... and thanks for saying it. My 318 2bbl rated at 150 net ran 15.90's while my 200 net V6 Pontiac in a more aero dynamic car (and maybe lighter) ran 16.20's. 50 more horse and a slower time??? Hmmmmmm......

 

[318willrun]

The coyote 5.0 in the new mustangs shares nothing other than the displacement with the old motor. It is a modular 32v dual vvt engine. I drove a new Mustang a couple weeks ago it is very impressive.

Ummm..... my point exactly. Took the 5.0 and gave it todays works and watch it scream.. What if dodge had done this with the 360 magnum??????

 

[dartfever]

Today's V6's can create the HP, but they will never give you the TQ of a V8 and that's what gets you moving (at least without a power adder). Those new V6's also come backed with 6+ speed trannys so they can stay in the power band of the engine more often.

As for ford and the 5.0L, that's not a Windsor 5.0L with fancy heads on it. It's based off their 4.6L mod engines as tech857 mentioned.

 

[Hersbird]

My 3.6 v6 that makes 288 hp has 11.5:1 compression and uses 85 octain just fine. That is somewhat the VVT but also a lot of the direct injection. Now they can even eliminate the throttle plate all together and control rpm and ignition with fuel like a diesel. With the VVT, the can timing itself can be constantly adjusted, there are even aftermarket tunes to replicate a "thumper" can by adding overlap whenever you want, or a velvet smooth idle. The 4 valves per cylinder means a Hemi style chamber with opposed valves but also a larger overall surface area for airflow but the individual smaller vavles mean less shrouding then 2 large valves.

 

[Hersbird]

All this actually does add lots of low end torque considering the displacement. It is an almost completely flat torque curve. Granted a 5.9 will probably make more low end torque then a 3.6 but those 6-8 speed granny's you were talking about mean you can either add more low gears or give a much lower overall gear in the axle. Chevy I think is doing the best of all this year adding direct injection to their already good 5.3 and 6.2. On the higher octain E85, the 5.3 will make 380hp@5600 and 416 ft-lbs@4100. Not to shabby for the basic truck small block.

 

[MopaR&D]

Ummm..... my point exactly. Took the 5.0 and gave it todays works and watch it scream.. What if dodge had done this with the 360 magnum??????

Well I don't think you quite understand, designing a completely new 32-valve engine that "happens" to be 5.0 liters in displacement is VERY different than "taking the old 5.0 and giving it todays works". The new 5.0L shares NOTHING with the old 5.0; it is not an "update" of the original in any way it is a completely fresh, new engine design purposely made to 5.0 liters because of the marketing potential which has worked... The engine itself is a powerhouse BTW it is in a completely different class of power and efficiency than the old 302 windsor could ever have been brought up to. An example of a redesigned engine: in the early 1990s the truck market was becoming more competitive and Dodge needed something to bring it up-to-date. They knew a completely new engine design would obviously have the best results but based on what was needed at the time COST was more important. Hence, the 5.2/5.9 Magnums. They share the same architecture as the LA but with redesigned heads, roller cam, pedestal rockers, EFI yada yada but those are all rather minor tweaks when compared to a new design; they can swap most parts with the LA. The 5.7 Hemi shares a 360 stroke and 318 bore for ~345 cubes but shares no actual parts with those older engines.

 

[MopaR&D]

My 3.6 v6 that makes 288 hp has 11.5:1 compression and uses 85 octain just fine. That is somewhat the VVT but also a lot of the direct injection. Now they can even eliminate the throttle plate all together and control rpm and ignition with fuel like a diesel. With the VVT, the can timing itself can be constantly adjusted, there are even aftermarket tunes to replicate a "thumper" can by adding overlap whenever you want, or a velvet smooth idle. The 4 valves per cylinder means a Hemi style chamber with opposed valves but also a larger overall surface area for airflow but the individual smaller vavles mean less shrouding then 2 large valves.

The main thing is the fact you have 2 separate intake ports with much higher velocities than one bigger one. A Hemi chamber doesn't have an issue with valve shrouding but using massive valves/ports to take advantage of the layout makes the airflow sluggish at low speeds.

There are "levels" of VVT also, the only kind that can make the full adjustments for cam overlap are the ones in DOHC engines. SOHC and pushrod engines like the new Hemi can only advance/retard the overall cam timing, except for others (Honda VTEC) that can actually switch between two different cam profiles while running.

 

[6d9 Valiant]

VVT, direct-injection w/very quick processing by the ECU, 8+ gears in an auto trans, less internal drag inside an ICE these days, great head flow designed in, efficient exhaust, better materials and manufacturing processes...

Adds up.

 

[evil66]

Here in Australia I drive an 99 model ls1 powered Holden.(yeah I know but it was my wife's daily driver and I would rather kill it than my mopars).

At the end of the day it's still a pushrod v8 with similar capacity to a 318/360 but it makes a genuine 320hp and does it with a very small duration camshaft, around 200@50. To me it's all in the heads and what they flow compared to an old school LA engine and it's hydraulic roller cam with its ability to run high lift with smaller duration. The high compression ratio and knocks sensors help too.

What I have noticed is though that having the bigger ports and better flow sacrifices low end torque, put your foot in this thing down at lower rpms and it will pull away smoothly with the EFi but it has no torque compared to my small block mopars.

Having a t56 6 speed with close ratios and 3.45:1 gears does tend to mask the lack of torque, put a 3 speed auto in it with 2.92 and 3.23 gears and it wouldn't go anywhere fast!

Put some nicely ported edelbrocks with hydraulic roller cam on a 318/340/360 and I dont see any reason why it can't make the same power.

 

[OldmanRick]

Then again, in days gone past, there was also fuel to feed them.My wife had an Oldsmobile with a 425 labeled on the pie tin reading "Ultra High Compression", "Super Rocket" & "Use Preimum Fuel Only" @ what I remember as listed @ 11-1.Nice engine!

I lived and miss those days too rumble...

 

[evil66]

I'm in the US on holidays at the moment, noticed a lot of your pump fuel is 87,89 and 91 octane. In australia we can get 98 octane at the pump and even 100 octane at limited stations which sure helps with running a bit more comp in our street cars.

 

[RustyRatRod]

And there hasn't been a Windsor 5.0 produced since, what, '95 or '96 when the Modular V8 came online with SOHC 2V and has since sprouted things like DOHC, 4V per cylinder, VVT, variable intake, etc...

Yup and the last pushrod V8 designed by Ford was the 351M and 400 engines. That was a while back.

 

[69_340_GTS]

I'm in the US on holidays at the moment, noticed a lot of your pump fuel is 87,89 and 91 octane. In australia we can get 98 octane at the pump and even 100 octane at limited stations which sure helps with running a bit more comp in our street cars.

Different way of calculating the octane.

It's entirely because of the method used to calculate the octane. In the U.S., we use the ((R+M) /2) average, which sits about 5-10 octane lower than the standard RON measurement Europe uses.

I don't know why.

 

[rumblefish360]

Raising this thread from the dead just for this picture of what the wife and used to own. A ‘66 Oldsmobile Dynamic 88.
W/10.5-1 compression ratio. Just the lie pan survives.
I maaaaaaaaay have a picture of it.
I dug it up and somehow remembered this thread. 2014!