What is a good combo for turning high rpm?

-
Dude, I can show you guys at the strip with less than half 7K runnin 8K and better. Was there a few weeks ago. Done it myself.
 
StrokerScamp said:
Dude, I can show you guys at the strip with less than half 7K runnin 8K and better. Was there a few weeks ago. Done it myself.
Click to expand...

This is a road race car. He's up there longer and probably only 15-30 sec gaps between those rpms all for about 15 minutes. And probably 8 of those 15 minute sessions a day.

Not 1/4 mile at a time at the strip.
 
autoxcuda said:
This is a road race car. He's up there longer and probably only 15-30 sec gaps between those rpms all for about 15 minutes. And probably 8 of those 15 minute sessions a day.

Not 1/4 mile at a time at the strip.
Click to expand...

I understand that man. Haven't you read my post regarding screens and magnets?? I was simply sayin that you can spin one that high without big money. And you can. Hell I used to spin my STOCK 73 340 past 8K in my charger on a regular basis like a dumbass in high school. cracked a piston too. but it DID it. To sit here and say "you can't do it on 7K budget" is just flat out wrong. Even a road race motor. You aint gotta have 3K heads to spin that high. that's just BS. The factory never ported nuthin and they had motors that would spin that high and still PULL. I think his budget is tight, but not unrealistic. specially if he does a lot of the work himself.
 
I put my budget at 7k mainly because if im going to spend any more than that I'll just go lsx motor, but id love to keep it mopar powered. I guess mopar powered road race cars are not that common. I know of nobody doing it in my race circles. I guess what I was looking for someone here which a proven setup to say you need x,y,z parts and your good. Its sad that at the track all you see is ford or chevy based motors.
 
Well you shouldnt let that stop you. there are plenty of people in the know who know how to build an engine and would be willing to help. I wouldn't let that stop me from putting a Mopar on the track. I mean....it should be no surprise that there is a lack of Mopars in that arena. They are fewer in numbers everywhere else. To me, that would make the accomplishment all the more sweet.
 
1lostsoldier said:
I put my budget at 7k mainly because if im going to spend any more than that I'll just go lsx motor, but id love to keep it mopar powered. I guess mopar powered road race cars are not that common. I know of nobody doing it in my race circles. I guess what I was looking for someone here which a proven setup to say you need x,y,z parts and your good. Its sad that at the track all you see is ford or chevy based motors.
Click to expand...

How much are those Ford and Chevy guys spending on thier 8K rpm motors? High end rockers arms I don't think cost much different that Ford or Chevy.

I just read the Nascar LSX Camping Word spec crate motor cost around $25K. It makes 600 hp from 6200 - 8000 rpm. Just what I read googling some info.
.
.
.

What about taking two steps back and looking at the original goal/dilemma? That was to avoid needing to shift a certain places in the track where others have said they are not shifting.

Are there other ways to accomplish that goal without building an 8K rpm motor? Maybe not. Just trying to view all the possibilities.
 
I do appreciate the help and like I said i am willing to invest some money to make this happen but if no one has any proven setups i'm going to have to go to something I know will hold up. I can afford to invest 7 to 8k in an engine that may just blow up. When I know i can can build an ls or sb2 based engine for that price that is proven to hold up to those exremes.

Also every competitive race them in almost all forms of road racing have engines that will rev high, this is key to running up front with the big boys.
 
1lostsoldier said:
I do appreciate the help and like I said i am willing to invest some money to make this happen but if no one has any proven setups i'm going to have to go to something I know will hold up. I can afford to invest 7 to 8k in an engine that may just blow up. When I know i can can build an ls or sb2 based engine for that price that is proven to hold up to those exremes.

Also every competitive race them in almost all forms of road racing have engines that will rev high, this is key to running up front with the big boys.
Click to expand...

They are out there, just very few. You have to dig deeper. It's not cookbook stuff. If you wanted to run what everyone else was running you wouldn't be running a Demon anyways, correct?

The Trans Am Challenger T/A of Ken Epsman and both AAR's run hard. Ken is a hard charger and runs up front. At least Epsman's car is run out of Randy Peterson's shop in Sears Point. I think one of the AAR's is too. Randy restored one of the AAR's. That would be a contact.

Also Ed Skanes and crew in KY restored on of the AAR and the 2nd Challenger. They also run circle track Mopars and are very familiar with building the cars and motors.

RyanJ http://www.shadydellspeedshop.com/ builts circle track motors and such. Wouldn't hurt to give him a call. He's more accessible than the others.

They are going to ask the same questions to start as Moper did.
 
How big is the course?
Stright aways in length?
I'm finding a 8K rpm a bit over the top. But, what do I know?
 
Just thinking out loud here....... You want reliable, RPM, and 450HP??

I would de-stroke the 318, I wonder if there is any of those 3" SB cranks laying around anymore.

What was the REAL trans am motor? Wasn't it a 297 cu in 4.04 bore engine? Since you have an already proven 318 block, I would keep it,m and mimic the de-stroke 340.

I would....

Run a quality (but light) set of rods, your choice.
Run a light (think Ross) piston, made for your stroke.
Guitar jones oiling mods and the like, get on moparchat and read Sanborns too.
Get real serious on the heads, like the W2? maybe Aluminum? That RPM will take cam, and that cam will take compression.........
Solid roller valvetrain. I built a 318 that ran happy to 7500 with a roller Mopar circle track cam, I think the duration was 290/290, with .590 lift. I had Harland sharp rollers on it too.. It wasn't HELD at 7500 though..... Oiling system mods, (very extrensive) and clearancing is a must. most think because they have hit 8K before, that what they have will last at 8K. MOST street/strip engines wouldn't run a couple minutes at 6K, let alone 8K.

I would find a guru, thats not on the net, to walk you through the extensive steps to building a long living high RPM motor. Where abouts do you live?
 
rumblefish360 said:
How big is the course?
Stright aways in length?
I'm finding a 8K rpm a bit over the top. But, what do I know?
Click to expand...

The top 5 guys in my class all run sb2 setups that regular rev to 10k and sit most of the race between 6500-8500. One of the guys showed me his data logger where he hit 10700 at one part of the track almost everytime and that was a 25 lap race.

I know what it takes to get rpm out of an engine I am just looking to see if a small block mopar can do it reliably
 
1lostsoldier said:
The top 5 guys in my class all run sb2 setups that regular rev to 10k and sit most of the race between 6500-8500. One of the guys showed me his data logger where he hit 10700 at one part of the track almost everytime and that was a 25 lap race.

I know what it takes to get rpm out of an engine I am just looking to see if a small block mopar can do it reliably
Click to expand...

OK cool. SBC engines are doing those revs huh?

What tracks? Many?
 
A MOPAR SB will do it more reliably than a GM....................... GM oiling is junk compared to the SBM..........


And tell those SBC guys to turn the switch on the back of the tach to 8cyl............. 8)
 
I mainly race road atlanta but also have been to roebling road, sebring and vir. At any road coarse your going to see those rpms all the time as you go from slow sections to the high speed sections. Dont equate high rpm with high speed at some tracks you may go down to first and hold it through some tight esses or increasing apexs.
Watch the video and listen to the engine you'll hear it at high rpm most of the time.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyU6mEdcW4U&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyU6mEdcW4U&feature=related[/ame]
 
OK cool man. There is an oil mod thread here by Guitar Jones IIRC that ddress the high rpm oiling issues of the SBM engine. It is a simple thing to address.

It was a simple drill and tap of the oil galleys within the valley with one side feeding the other with a bent tube crossing over sides.
the oil pump mods were a simple grinder chore smoothing out bends and transitions.

Off the side of the block can some drill and tapping for lines to run oil to a cooler.

I'm going to look into this type of racing. I think it really cool but really have no idea of how things are done drivetrain wise.
 
The reason the engines are revved that high has nothing to do with gearing, and everthing to do with how power is made. Horsepower is torque over time. The more times a cylinder fires on a power stroke per mintue, the more power you make and get to the tires over the same time (rotations per minute). 8K rpm is 4000 power cycles per minute. 6K rpm is only 3000 per minute. The trick is making the power during each of those firing events, and keeping the parts together. You're not going to toss a 9K rpm capable SB2 together for 7-8K. Which is why I look at t eh car and ask why the budget? The mopar engines can do it. A factory block could do it. And it's not about screens and magnets...lol. Mopar's oil system is very good on it's own, and with some minor tweaks will sustain the high rpms. It's more about top of the line parts... Like billet cranks, rods with honda sized big ends that weight 2/3 of a std I beam Mopar rod, and pistons that will take the stress over and over. Plus, a stable valve train. I think, at this point, you have a car that is not competitive, and to be competitive you've got to step up and change how you're thinking of winning. Or by the Chevy power train, which i think would be tragic in such a cool mopar.
 
Here's an SB2 for $18K: http://www.race-cars.com/engsales/chevy/1245343673/1245343673ss.htm

Here's an P7 Mopar for $19.5K two years ago: http://www.gt1da.com/board/index.php?showtopic=4041

This ebay ad from a year ago had a P7 at $13K obo: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NASC...ryZ33615QQihZ012QQitemZ220334058418QQtcZphoto

Talk here of P7 motors: http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4992101&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

I wonder if the P7 motors are actually cheaper than the SB2's because they are not as popular? The fact that not many people are going road racing, pro touring build, hot rod build with a Mopar P7 motor could be to your advantage.
 
moper said:
... And it's not about screens and magnets...lol. ....
Click to expand...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm30l8sqlQw"]YouTube - Fletch - It's All Ball Bearings[/ame]

Ok, there was more that was said than just screens and magnets. That was just naming the post that was being referred too. But sorry I couldn't help myself.
 
OK, I just got to say that if your pals running the LS motors are full of it. No way their 10,000 rpm motors only cost 7 large. I'm building two LS9 cars for customers right now and just finished a LSX supercharged car for another. The LSX car was good for 800hp and could probably stay bolted togeether at 10k. I wasn't ballsy enough to try that. Even without the huffer on it, it was way above that magic 7 number.

So even if you could build your LS based motor for that amount of money, how much will it cost to transplant it into your Demon? You could add that amount into your Mopar build.....
 
Revhendo said:
OK, I just got to say that if your pals running the LS motors are full of it. No way their 10,000 rpm motors only cost 7 large. I'm building two LS9 cars for customers right now and just finished a LSX supercharged car for another. The LSX car was good for 800hp and could probably stay bolted togeether at 10k. I wasn't ballsy enough to try that. Even without the huffer on it, it was way above that magic 7 number.

So even if you could build your LS based motor for that amount of money, how much will it cost to transplant it into your Demon? You could add that amount into your Mopar build.....
Click to expand...

I'm guessing the original poster realizes the 8-10K rpm Chevy motor aren't $7K.

But I feel there is a turning point here. And I feel for his dilemma... Spend $20K or whatever on a Chevy motor that you know will do the job and you know the resources to achieve it. OR go hunting around and spending $20K experimenting to see if you can get that same job done. Beyond the money, it takes a lot of farting around. If there is no one out there doing real close to what he is doing, he's taking more of a chance. You can spend $20K+ on a motor and have it blow the first lap.

Sure in theory you should be able to build something comparable. But race proven is different than theory.

Not that "proven" means the Chevy or Ford is a better motor. Many times that's just a bunch of other people who broke parts first at your track until they figured stuff out. Somebody else was the guinea pig before you.
 
autoxcuda said:
I'm guessing the original poster realizes the 8-10K rpm Chevy motor aren't $7K.

But I feel there is a turning point here. And I feel for his dilemma... Spend $20K or whatever on a Chevy motor that you know will do the job and you know the resources to achieve it. OR go hunting around and spending $20K experimenting to see if you can get that same job done. Beyond the money, it takes a lot of farting around. If there is no one out there doing real close to what he is doing, he's taking more of a chance. You can spend $20K+ on a motor and have it blow the first lap.

Sure in theory you should be able to build something comparable. But race proven is different than theory.

Not that "proven" means the Chevy or Ford is a better motor. Many times that's just a bunch of other people who broke parts first at your track until they figured stuff out. Somebody else was the guinea pig before you.
Click to expand...

There's got to be some good info out there. Mopar was running somewhat competatively well into the 80's in NASCAR. Even the early 70's Trans Am series should have some usable tech. Not to mention the folks you have already pointed out. Maybe even Ray Barton, he built the motor for Mopar Actions Green Brick, which took out quite a few cars with bigger budgets.
I actually really like the LS engine series, (ugly little things), was even toying with the idea of one in the Val. I'm just thinking for the extra 1000 rpm, he could stay with the Mopar and still get the job done.
 
Auto, That's kind of where I was going. The difference is with the work alreay put in a Demon already. There's no way I could sleep at night putting a SB2 or LS powerplant in it. If I had a Mustang, or a last gen Camaro I could. But there comes the choice of do I want to have the easiest path to winning, or do I like my car and want to accept the challenge of making something that is hard to make competitive a winner. Looking at what has been done, the racing budget is not the single detrmining influence here. I know your answer to that question...and I admire it...lol.
 
After reading three pages I have to ask if anyone knows how many cubes the SBC guys are running. A 318 would be at a loss against a 350 let alone the popular 383 stroker that they build. If your class has no displacement rule it seems that cubes would be the way to go. As stated before the lower rpm and broad torque curve would trump high rpms. Power at all engine speeds is a basic function of how much a/f you can stuff into the engine. A four inch 360 will make your 450HP all day at 5500/6000 rpm. A 273 would make it also with a lot of flow and 10k rpm. The small block can be made to live that high but why do it if you have no cid rules? As a drag racer from days gone by I found it more to my liking to build a Mopar and run it 2-3 years than build a SBC and tear it every week to replace valve springs and check for other rpm related ailments. I'd take a long stroke flat torque curve over a peaky screamer. Listen to the nascar boys on sunday. They sound like the Indy cars from the 60's turning 9500 rpm. If you could find a clip from the early 60's of nascar all you would hear was thunder.

I'll take the thunder.
 
I'm actually kinda hoping the OP keeps posting. Even if he remotors the car, it's still a cool deal.
 
dartjack said:
After reading three pages I have to ask if anyone knows how many cubes the SBC guys are running. A 318 would be at a loss against a 350 let alone the popular 383 stroker that they build. If your class has no displacement rule it seems that cubes would be the way to go. As stated before the lower rpm and broad torque curve would trump high rpms. Power at all engine speeds is a basic function of how much a/f you can stuff into the engine. A four inch 360 will make your 450HP all day at 5500/6000 rpm. A 273 would make it also with a lot of flow and 10k rpm. The small block can be made to live that high but why do it if you have no cid rules? As a drag racer from days gone by I found it more to my liking to build a Mopar and run it 2-3 years than build a SBC and tear it every week to replace valve springs and check for other rpm related ailments. I'd take a long stroke flat torque curve over a peaky screamer. Listen to the nascar boys on sunday. They sound like the Indy cars from the 60's turning 9500 rpm. If you could find a clip from the early 60's of nascar all you would hear was thunder.

I'll take the thunder.
Click to expand...
Most of the sb2 are the standard stroke so there 358ci. One thing most people have a hard time understanding with road racing is that on a technical track like road Atlanta your not just running around with your foot on the floor. Its not drag racing you must have an engine that will at least pull 7k if not your shifting and every time you shift you lose time and unsettle the car. My other car is a 1990 ex Winston cup car with BBC 540ci that makes about 900hp and I have its rev limiter at 6500. Its has about 4 years of road racing on it with little to no problems. With it I still have problems being real competitive with it(I normally am in the top 5) but the guy with all the money running late model cars with 800hp sb2s still just slowly walk away from me. Yeah I'm ~300lbs heavier but I make more horse power and torque but there hp and tq patterns are much broader and longer so they just walk away.I'm really getting of subject here....

I'm thinking now maybe I should try to find a real solid crank, some better heads and go efi.


I reminded by my friends favorite saying,"Road racing makes a heroine addiction seem like a vague craving for something salty":toothy10:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top