what line go's where?

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67barracuda

67barracuda

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I'm installing new brake lines and proportioning valves from theRightStuff. I have manual disk/drum set up on the car. Can some please label the attached pic to which line go's where and is this the right valve set up for manual disk brakes? I called after having the kit for some time, and they were less than helpful.

IMG_2352.JPG
 
What you have there is the early, divorced system. The one on the right is the safety switch. the two ends are internally separated from eachother, by a traveling plunger.It doesn't matter which end goes to the front and which end goes to the rear, whatever is convenient. The bottom is usually for the rear.
Notice that the mounting bracket has a small tab on it. You might find a pair of holes on the driver-side frame just below the M/C, up close to the firewall. That is where I have seen those mounted. Tab in the small hole, bolt in the larger, rear outlet to the bottom.
The other valve is the rear brake proportioning valve, and it goes immediately after the safety sw, and on the it's way to the rear brakes. That valve is directional. If you orient it with the plug down,(as shown) then the topmost port will need to go to the rear brakes, while the lower port will go up to the safety sw.

The pic that Abodyjoe posted is for a Combination valve, which is what replaced what you have, in about 1972.If you look closely you can see where they married them. You can also see it is plumbed exactly the same way. Press his thank button
 
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I must rant. "Not ever" = NEVER ask a question about your car without stating the year and other relevant particulars. This is a perfect example where it matters, and why the answer in post #2 is wrong for the OP. The item in the right of post #1 photo is a "distribution block w/ imbalance switch". The "proportioning valve" is the part to the left. These later became one part, the more common "combination valve", which also includes a "front metering valve".
 
OK let try to element any rants the might occur.
My 67 barracuda with a 15/16" master cylinder, has a manual disk/drum brake swap which had a proportioning valve like in post #2, now has new line and distribution block/proportioning valve like in post #1. I bled the lines and don't seem to have any air in them, but they still feel like I never bled them, and still have to pump several time to build up peddle pressure.
In bleeding the rear brakes the peddle would go to floor when bleeder is opened on the drum. The fronts when bleeder is open on caliper plenty of fluid would come out under pressure but brake peddle wouldn't travel to floor. Not sure what the problem is, line are correct only difference the type of proportioning block used. What to do next?
 
Did you bleed the M/C first? If the compensating port in the M/C saw air, the M/C will need to be bench bled.
If the rear system has air in it, the peddle will go nearly to the floor.This is normal.
If the rear brakes are way out of adjustment, then it will take several pumps to push enough fluid back there to push the W/Cs out far enough to energize the shoes. When the shoes finally get out far enough to do their job, then the pedal comes up and gets hard.Did you adjust the rear brake star-adjusters?
If the pushrod adjustment is too short the peddle will start from a handicap.
To prove the problem is in the rear, simply clamp the rear RUBBER flex hose. Do not clamp braided anything. The pedal should be hard, cuz now you are energizing only the front.If it doesn't get hard, you will have to fix the front first.
 
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Ok I will try that tomorrow, but I had good peddle and all was adjusted before swapping in the new lines and distribution block ect. I would be surprised if rear need adjusted, also same master cylinder never removed it and put plugs in when lines were removed form it.
 
69.

First pic should help, second pic if it is a BB.

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image.jpeg
 
Just to make sure I bench bled the master cylinder and no air, so that's good. Then I tried pinching the rear brake hose, it made no difference to the peddle. So I removed it and pinched the driver side brake hose, again on change. This time I left that hose pinched and pinched the passenger side brake hose, still no different. No peddle pressure with out several times pumping the peddle. One thing I noticed is that after pumping up the peddle and after letting off, the master cylinder was hissing from the cap and some not a lot of fluid was seeping out under caps. One thing I didn't do is plug both hole in master cylinder and check peddle pressure just to make sure nothing was wrong there. ??
 
67barracuda said:
... One thing I noticed is that after pumping up the peddle and after letting off, the master cylinder was hissing from the cap and some not a lot of fluid was seeping out under caps. ...
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A big clue, and a common problem. Remove the cap and watch in the reservoir as a helper presses the pedal then releases. Do slow at first since you may get a geyser of fluid coming up, which is a strong indication of air in the system. The only exception is if a rubber hose is expanding and retracting, but that is uncommon and quickly leads to a blown hose, the same as an artery rupturing from an aneurism. The only other exception is if drums brakes have the self-adjusters way too loose so that the shoes move too much. I assume you installed the "L" adjuster on the left side and "R" on right. Calipers don't have a spring retract on the pads, instead the piston moves just slightly as the square O-ring rotates. If you see the geyser, bleed and bleed again. You must pump an MC pedal at least 50 times to sweep all air bubbles out. Your caliper and cylinder bleed screws must be at the top to vent air.
 
Could I have air trapped in the middle of a line? When I bleed them now I get a bubble free steam of fluid for all four corners. The calipers do have the bleeders on top. I checked all connection and did find any leaks, but I did have a geyser when pumping with caps off and saw some bubble come up for bottom of master cylinder. I need to get some more brake fluid.
 
The geyser says on of three things; Either A) there is significant air some where, or B) the rear brakes need adjusting, or C) both of the above.
Since air does not like to travel downhill, and since it is downhill to every corner, yes it is possible for air to be trapped somewhere.
Bleeding brakes, at home, really is a two person job, I don't care what anybody says. You need one guy in the cab, and one guy at the bleeder. The guy in the cab pumps 'em up two or three stabs and holds the pedal down, and calls out "down". Very important that he hold the pedal down. Then the guy at the bleeder releases the pressure,slams it closed,and calls back "done". This is then repeated two or three times, and then the master is topped up.Then back to the beginning.When the air finally stops coming it's time to move on to the next bleeder.
If the fluid level,in the M/C does not drop, then either the fluid is returning as fast as you are pumping it out,or the M/C is bad.If the fluid is returning that fast, it would be because a trapped air pocket, under pressure, is shooting it back every time the compensating port opens.
You can buy special bleeders called SpeedBleeders, to make it a one man show.
I'm pretty sure your rear brake adjustment is the issue; but I'm a little confused because clamping the rear hose should have eliminated that. At this point I would clamp them all, and that should make your pedal rock-hard. If not,then there is air in there for sure, or the M/C is no good..
 
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I check the pad adjustment and it was ok, but I removed one rear drum to see if anything look odd. Well, looks like cylinder is sucked in. I used a vacuum brake bleeder to help me since all the lines were dry.

IMG_2381.JPG
 
AJ/FormS said:
The geyser says on of three things; Either A) there is significant air some where, or B) the rear brakes need adjusting, or C) both of the above.
Since air does not like to travel downhill, and since it is downhill to every corner, yes it is possible for air to be trapped somewhere.
Bleeding brakes, at home, really is a two person job, I don't care what anybody says. You need one guy in the cab, and one guy at the bleeder. The guy in the cab pumps 'em up two or three stabs and holds the pedal down, and calls out "down". Very important that he hold the pedal down. Then the guy at the bleeder releases the pressure,slams it closed,and calls back "done". This is then repeated two or three times, and then the master is topped up.Then back to the beginning.When the air finally stops coming it's time to move on to the next bleeder.
If the fluid level,in the M/C does not drop, then either the fluid is returning as fast as you are pumping it out,or the M/C is bad.If the fluid is returning that fast, it would be because a trapped air pocket, under pressure, is shooting it back every time the compensating port opens.
You can buy special bleeders called SpeedBleeders, to make it a one man show.
I'm pretty sure your rear brake adjustment is the issue; but I'm a little confused because clamping the rear hose should have eliminated that. At this point I would clamp them all, and that should make your pedal rock-hard. If not,then there is air in there for sure, or the M/C is no good..
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Yes, I having to pump them 20-30 times to get a hard peddle.

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67barracuda said:
Yes, I having to pump them 20-30 times to get a hard peddle.

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Replace all the lines, cylinders and calipers if you have not already. Sitting long periods is not good! The rear cylinders look like they have set a long time!
 
You know what tho, ugly as they are, you cannot judge a book by it's cover.I see nothing abnormal there yet.
But twenty to thirty times is ridiculous. I have a feeling your M/C got a big gulp of returning air.You may have to re-bleed it.Then bleed the connections at the ports after you install them.Then tickle the peddle until no more tiny air bubbles rise from the C-port.
Sometimes you have to drive the air down the line, and out the bottom, at top speed so it doesn't get a chance to reverse direction. If there is a restriction in the line,(usually a rust blockage in the rear line at it's lowest spot) you will have to force the air through it with hydraulic pressure.You may have to crack various connections to get the air out, starting from those closest to the M/C and working your way back.
 
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AJ/FormS said:
You know what tho, ugly as they are, you cannot judge a book by it's cover.I see nothing abnormal there yet.
But twenty to thirty times is ridiculous. I have a feeling your M/C got a big gulp of returning air.You may have to re-bleed it.Then bleed the connections at the ports after you install them.Then tickle the peddle until no more tiny air bubbles rise from the C-port.
Sometimes you have to drive the air down the line, and out the bottom, at top speed so it doesn't get a chance to reverse direction. If there is a restriction in the line,(usually a rust blockage in the rear line at it's lowest spot) you will have to force the air through it with hydraulic pressure.You may have to crack various connections to get the air out, starting from those closest to the M/C and working your way back.
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Thanks, I'll try that this weekend. Its got to be air trapped, like is said it was fine a two weeks ago with old set up having good peddle pressure and all for corners stopping just fine. Then I removed all the lines+proportion valve and install the new distribution block proportioning valve set with lines all because they were old, now I wish I didn't touch them.
 
67barracuda said:
Thanks, I'll try that this weekend. Its got to be air trapped, like is said it was fine a two weeks ago with old set up having good peddle pressure and all for corners stopping just fine. Then I removed all the lines+proportion valve and install the new distribution block proportioning valve set with lines all because they were old, now I wish I didn't touch them.
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Ok
If That's the case then likely there is air. Sometimes enhancing things opens new issues that were not expected!
 
New wheel cylinders cost ~$6, so most people just replace them when restoring the brake system. But you can rebuild yours w/ a $1.50 kit and a cylinder hone to remove rust pits. I then blow thru all the tubing w/ air, followed by ethanol when switching to DOT 5 silicone fluid, then air and dry 2 days. New rubber hoses if they look anything but new. When you don't get flow from a bleeder, remove the bleeder because it can get clogged w/ rust gunk. You can find a rusty mess if new fluid hasn't been flushed thru for 10 years. My 1982 Chevy S-10 had a rusty, leaking rear cylinder when only 4 yrs old, so wonder what crappy fluid they installed at the factory. Why I use silicone in all my non-ABS vehicles.
 
I think I would get new rear wheel cylinders. The groove in the 'pusher rod' coming out of the bore is where the rubber boot should set, so the boots look to have been installed wrong for a long time, probably not sealing right, and likely there is rust inside the bores.

And yes, after reading this thread a coupla times, I suspect a lot of air in the MC. I'd take it off the car and bench bleed again. IMHO, don't use the simple output port plugs; use steel or rubber lines on the output ports that loop back into the reservoirs. These do a much better and faster job than the solid port plugs found in some kits. Make sure the MC is level when you bench bleed it, and don't have the pushrod end tilted up.
 
And vacuum bleeders can be a problem as they can suck air in around the bleeder threads. I like to gravity bleed one corner at a time for a while and then finish with a 2 man bleed procedure.
 
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