What the heck!

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mullinax95 said:
I bet that is the problem..... I bet I have 273-340 pan rail gaskets mixed wrongly with 360 front and rear pan seals.
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That sure looks like the problem. They packaged them them wrong. I think I have a set of those very same gaskets out in the garage. I'll go pull them out after supper and make sure they'll fit my engine and pan correctly and post back.
 
Ok without further adue......pic's and when installing,glue pan rail gaskets to the block,then install a dab of silicone at the ends where they meet the rubber end seals,then install rear end seal into the main cap,the front end seal is installed into the pan by pulling the lil' tit looking thingies,then push the pan up into place install all of the bolts loosely.after they are all in use a nut driver to take them all to snug/not tight then starting in the middle of the pan rails tighten 1/4 turn more working in a spiral till they are all snug and a 1/4 turn and Viola' all leak's dissapear...magically now Dr. Wagg's has to put away all the gasket's and oil pan and eat some chow before the missus konk's me on the noggin with her fryin pan Lol hope this is helpful
P.S. do not use silicone or rtv to seal the end seals,they will slip out if you do,install them dry as with the rear main seal but after rear main seal is installed into rear main cap and block apply a thin layer of grease to the rear main where the seal rides before installing the rear main cap

oilpanandseal.JPG


pan rail gasket.JPG


rear main for dummies.JPG


rear main seal.JPG


318endseal.JPG


gasket correct.JPG
 
Those are all a mile off. I'm sure there is a simple solution (I hope for you guys)
I'll keep watching this post. toolman
 
waggin said:
Ok without further adue......pic's
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That still doesn't explain the reason why the pan seal sticks up a half inch or so on one side if I have the seal in it's correct position on the other side.

Also I flipped the pan gaskets around and found that the gasket that I had last night fits better on the other side of the pan. So therefore it narrowed the margin between the seal and gasket down to around a 1/2" but I'm still not happy with that. The manual says sealer on all four corners. That's exactly what I did the first time and it leaked.

I will have to say that ma Mopar dropped the ball when they designed the 360 oil pan and seal. I don't see how a flimsy 1/4" wide thin piece of rubber is supposed to keep from leaking. That little seal is the most pathetic looking piece of rubber I believe I have ever laid my eyes on. That's like taking knife to a gun fight with these higher compression motors nowadays. The front pan seal is wide, over lapping edges and even has tabs to hold it to the pan. What was they thinking?
 
Have a lil' faith,it work's,I have had plenty of 360's that I built over the years and it took experience to get it right,when I first started racing oval track I had a rear main seal go out at the track and changed it there in the pit's,right before I fired it up an older gent that had seen me working on it asked to se the old rear main seal ans to show him how I had it installed,he let me know that I had done it right then showed me why it went out.....he had me install a pcv valve in the engine for the races that night then told me to put two breathers on the engine instead of one,he stated that the crankcase pressure had ruined my seal..he was right,as far as the rear pan end seal...it will work nicely,that is how it was designed and it will work...have a lil' faith
 
waggin said:
Have a lil' faith,it work's,I have had plenty of 360's that I built over the years and it took experience to get it right,when I first started racing oval track I had a rear main seal go out at the track and changed it there in the pit's,right before I fired it up an older gent that had seen me working on it asked to se the old rear main seal ans to show him how I had it installed,he let me know that I had done it right then showed me why it went out.....he had me install a pcv valve in the engine for the races that night then told me to put two breathers on the engine instead of one,he stated that the crankcase pressure had ruined my seal..he was right,as far as the rear pan end seal...it will work nicely,that is how it was designed and it will work...have a lil' faith
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OK.... I guess I will give it a try. I can't see much because the motor is still in the car mated to the trans with headers hiding everything else.

My plan of attack is tack glue the pan gaskets to the block since they need to go in first.... install the rear seal into the rear main cap... dab silicone where the seal and pan gaskets come together and install pan. Then pray that it fixed it. I feel like I'm wasting my time and money on a poorly designed oil pan and seal is what it feels like to me. I think when they went to the magnum motors with the one piece oil pan gasket they finally caught on.

Anyways... I'm running a PVC and a breather on each valve cover trying to deter problems like this.
 
Have a lil' Faith Bro have a Lil' Faith....anybody that can build a car as awesome as your's can do this...so ......you can do this!!! I got Faith in ya!
 
Mully I know the book and papers with the gasket set says just a dab of silicone at the corners is all you need but every time I did it that way they eventually leaked so I now silicone both sides entirely very lightly with just a little more at the corners. Just enough to squeeze out a little when torqued down. It's kinda messy if you have to take it apart again but I have yet to have one leak doing it that way and I feel that's the most important thing. The last engine I did was just to get somebody by for a short time until he had the money for a new engine so I used the cheapest silicone I could find and it's been 6 months now and it hasn't even as much as seeped much less leak. Also make sure you torque the bolts down with a inch lb. torque wrench. It makes a diff.
 
Nice pictures Waggin :) i have never had any leaks of no kind in any of my 273 - 318 mains engines... and this 408 is a first timer so well just see how it goes.. i believe its mostly a matter of cleaning off oil and dirt from the surfaces (i always used the black mopar rtv silicone under and over all the way on pan gaskets)

Its going to be a hard time gettn that rubber gasket to stay in the main seal when u put the pan up.. an idea could be to go to a mashine shop that has a bottle of locktite OP-ring glue, have the gasket shorten a little bit, just so u get it to stay in the groove.. but leave a but for the crunch.. Just an idea
 
fishy68 said:
Mully I know the book and papers with the gasket set says just a dab of silicone at the corners is all you need but every time I did it that way they eventually leaked so I now silicone both sides entirely very lightly with just a little more at the corners. Just enough to squeeze out a little when torqued down. It's kinda messy if you have to take it apart again but I have yet to have one leak doing it that way and I feel that's the most important thing. The last engine I did was just to get somebody by for a short time until he had the money for a new engine so I used the cheapest silicone I could find and it's been 6 months now and it hasn't even as much as seeped much less leak. Also make sure you torque the bolts down with a inch lb. torque wrench. It makes a diff.
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You talking about silicone the gaskets not seals or both sides of the seal and gasket where they come together?

NorwayCuda69 said:
Nice pictures Waggin :) i have never had any leaks of no kind in any of my 273 - 318 mains engines... and this 408 is a first timer so well just see how it goes.. i believe its mostly a matter of cleaning off oil and dirt from the surfaces (i always used the black mopar rtv silicone under and over all the way on pan gaskets)

Its going to be a hard time gettn that rubber gasket to stay in the main seal when u put the pan up.. an idea could be to go to a mashine shop that has a bottle of locktite OP-ring glue, have the gasket shorten a little bit, just so u get it to stay in the groove.. but leave a but for the crunch.. Just an idea
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I was hoping the main cap will hold it in place long enough for me to grab the pan. I really don't know.... if you see something gold looking go flying over you house that was my oil pan with the seal in the bottom of the pan!
 
mullinax95 said:
You talking about silicone the gaskets not seals or both sides of the seal and gasket where they come together?
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Silicone everything all the way around. Both sides. Not real thick though cause if it's too thick it can squeeze out and chunk off inside the engine.

The last time I did one silicone held the rubber gasket in place. I also use 4 pieces of threaded rod about 2" long screwed into the block to guide the pan in place easier and quicker.
 
OK thanks!

I believe if I could reach the perimeter I would weld the bastard on there! LOL
 
to hold the end seal in place you can put a lil dab of wheatherstip adhesive to the tips of it maybe a lil dab of rtv in the main cap groove for the seal but I do not recomend anything where the rubber end seal meets the oil pan.should be dry and clean where those two meet but do it how you wan't,lotsa advice bein handed out to pick from.

end seal.JPG
 
I was going to let the main cap hold the seal in place until I got the pan to the block.
 
That looks like the wrong seal to me. I had no luck with a seal for my 70 Challenger rt oil pan. I bought two that were the same as each other, but not like the one I took off that lapped over the oil pan inside and out. The one I got looked like the one pictured here. I ended up cleaning the old one real good and re-using it. Not ideal as it was at least 15 years old (how long I've had the car. Maybe I have the same oil pan as Waggin?
 
Mullinax,
I had probably the same leak you did. I have the same pan and gaskets on there now and no leaks. Yes they do look screwy like that, I thought the same thing. Your best friends right now are patience and "the right stuff".

I put "the right stuff" under the rear pan seal where it meets the cap, on top of it, and the same at the front. I just squirted a dab and then smoothed it out with my finger. After a careful install, no leaks. I also put blue loctite on all the pan bolts. Hope this helps. I feel your pain.
 
ElFin said:
That looks like the wrong seal to me. I had no luck with a seal for my 70 Challenger rt oil pan. I bought two that were the same as each other, but not like the one I took off that lapped over the oil pan inside and out. The one I got looked like the one pictured here. I ended up cleaning the old one real good and re-using it. Not ideal as it was at least 15 years old (how long I've had the car. Maybe I have the same oil pan as Waggin?
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The motor I have is a 360. The rear seal is different on the 360 than the other small block motors. What size motor do you have?

redfastback said:
Mullinax,
I had probably the same leak you did. I have the same pan and gaskets on there now and no leaks. Yes they do look screwy like that, I thought the same thing. Your best friends right now are patience and "the right stuff".

I put "the right stuff" under the rear pan seal where it meets the cap, on top of it, and the same at the front. I just squirted a dab and then smoothed it out with my finger. After a careful install, no leaks. I also put blue loctite on all the pan bolts. Hope this helps. I feel your pain.
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Thanks... I more than likely put a thin coat on the seals. I might get to it tomorrow. I worked today. It will be awhile before I will know the final results because I'm doing other things to the motor now.
 
fishy68 said:
The only one piece gaskets I've seen (SCE and Mopar) only fit a magnum pan. They look real close on an LA pan but they'll leak. Summit and Jegs had them listed as fitting LA engines a while back but they were wrong and now have it corrected.
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You can use the one piece magnum gasket with an LA pan. Do it all the time. the difference is at the front where the rail ends at the loop around the front cover. The LA has a notch in each side and the magnum does not. Save the old front end piece and cut the ends off then trim to fit under the magnum gasket in the notch. silicne the heck out of it and assemble. Never a leak and it will normally stick to the magnum gasket when and if you have to remove and reuse it.

Larry
 
mullinax95 said:
The motor I have is a 360. The rear seal is different on the 360 than the other small block motors. What size motor do you have?




Thanks... I more than likely put a thin coat on the seals. I might get to it tomorrow. I worked today. It will be awhile before I will know the final results because I'm doing other things to the motor now.
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What other things are you doing? Upgrades???? I hope someone's input will help seal the motor. You had enough issues with the fuel...you don't need this. Keep us informed so we can have another leakfree cuda rollin' around!!
 
redfastback said:
What other things are you doing? Upgrades???? I hope someone's input will help seal the motor. You had enough issues with the fuel...you don't need this. Keep us informed so we can have another leakfree cuda rollin' around!!
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No upgrades but I am going to jet up the carb and install larger air bleeds.

The timing cover had some striped out bolts and came off my old 273. The old cover is just fatigued. I bought a new one from Mancinis. I'm going to remove the intake and paint it the same color as the motor. Just mostly cosmetic stuff but I might switch out the cam for something a little more aggressive.
 
mullinax95 said:
The motor I have is a 360. The rear seal is different on the 360 than the other small block motors. What size motor do you have?
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Sorry for vagueness. I have a 340, but it's the one with the 4-bolt main, and it came with an aftermarket oil pan. The strange thing is there is only one seal listed for 318-340, and the end seals didn't fit on mine at all. The end seals that are available look like what you have pictured, but the old ones on mine have a U-shaped cross section. This probably has nothing to do with your situation, but it is a piece of some (different?) puzzle. That's what makes this hobby so fun.
 
Well the pan is installed and everything seems to be where it should. When I put the rear pan seal in the main cap and pushed it up on each side there was a little droop at the bottom of the seal but I just ignored it and mounted the pan. Each side of the seal was as far as it would go towards the block in it's little slots.

Have lil' faith! lol
 
mullinax95 said:
Well the pan is installed and everything seems to be where it should. When I put the rear pan seal in the main cap and pushed it up on each side there was a little droop at the bottom of the seal but I just ignored it and mounted the pan. Each side of the seal was as far as it would go towards the block in it's little slots.

Have lil' faith! lol
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Tilt the motor to the back, and prime it out of the car. That might prove whether it's truly sealed or not.
 
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