What would you do?

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71Duster

71Duster

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Ok heres the issue. I had my 360 built by a reputable place. I dont doubt anything is built wrong. Still need my spec sheet but thats another matter

From the start the car had a lifter noise. BAD. I am running Johnson lifters, Smith pushrods and racer brown 1.5/1.6 rockers and a racer brown cam.

Talk to the builder and after several adjsutment sin go 16 new lifters. Run great for about 20mins and then #8 intake will fail to stay pumped up hot at idle.

Oil pressure is very good. 30-40psi hot @ idle and 65-70psi with rpm

So talking to the builder again he HATES steel lifter motors and recomends either the nice Schubeck lifters which has a price that scares me OR he says we should go to a solid cam. I am getting tired of trying to iron out valve train issues on a new motor I have barely driven. But the engine is down on power -I Think- Its a fresh 360 with 9.5:1 Diamond pistons and rings, mildly worked J heads etc. Distributor is curved to amtch runnign a 650 speed demon etc. Its all matched.

I am hopeing its jsut valve timing killing power because it will hardly rotate the tires. With rpm it flies! But it doesn;t feel much more impressive then my tired 340 I took out.

So questions is. Solids or Schubeck? This is a street car which may see the drag strip on rare occasions. I have to drive the car 3hrs to get to a strip or to car shows etc.
 
I have always ran Federal Mougal (sealed power) hydraulics and only once did I get a bad lifter. Isn't that a bit high for oil pressure? My 340 runs at 12-25 psi warm at idle. The thing I dont like about solids is the pereodic adjustments, do you know if the cam was timed with a degree wheel or just set by the timing marks? I hope you get it figured out!!
 
The shop "hates iron lifters"? What has he used for the past say, 40 years? He's missing something IMO. A few "ifs"... If it's down on power (and you say it feels it), and if it keeps collapsing one or more lifters, and if it gets noisey on a regular basis, I'd say he's overlooking something. Not saying "they suck" or anything, just saying I get tunnel vision when I encounter some issues, and sometimes one needs to look outside what you swear was the problem. Did they ever measure the lifter bores? Many places dont bother, unless the lifters dont rotate, or a new lifter sticks. But too big is just as bad. It can cause that one lifter to not get sufficient pressure to keep things pumped up. And swapping it to another bore cant be done because of the wear in patterns. They used to offer oversize lifters..I havent looked lately to see if that is still true. Also, you have factory heads. What did the rocker pattern on the valve tip look like? Rocker geometry and lifter preload can also cause problems. You should already have the preload figures for each lifter written down if it was noisey once previously. IMO, replacing lifters twice is fixing a symptom, not the problem. And Schubecks are cool, but not needed here. If your builder is just looking to get you out of his face, I think you're into a long head butting session.
 
Well this engine I was told was good for ab out 380-400hp a nice mid-hot street engine. When I was talking about the schubeck lifters I said I didn't think I needed to spend that much on my valve train for a mild street engine.

He said theres some very nice parts in there and its more then a mild street engine. My reply is thats how it feels on power.

I have no idea on the measure of the lifter bores as I said still waiting on my spec sheet but he said the numbers all came out very nice.

I can't remember what exactlly the wear looke dlike but this engine is ultra low mileage like blasts around a small town and thats it. Have yet to take it on a highway run even. I was told to run the preload down at 1/4 turn which is where he noise started and I adjsuted the first set down and down I ended up over a full turn in still noisey.

The new set I started at 1/2 turn in and all but that one was quiet I adjsuted the noisey one down in 1/8 turns to make 1 turn down and no change.

Summer is over cruiseing season is done so another summer of not driving my car sorta sucks. I want some more power from this thing too with 3.55 gears it will hardly even rotate the tires.
 
Cory, what are the specs on that Racer Brown cam? I know it really has nothing to do with your lifter noise, but it could account for your lack of power off the line. It sounds like you had a very frustrating summer with that lifter noise. Good luck.
 
I had a similiar problem with a lifter. The little tiny spring inside was flat. Took the lifter apart and pulled that spring so it had some spring and it pumped right up.
 
Its the Racer brown EX20C grind. The thing is on it's maiden voyage lifters ticking like a bastard on the 1-2 upshift at wot The rear end tried to skate around a bit. Have yet to be able to get it too feel like that again.

I HATE the little springs on those Johnson lifters they make it so hard to feel when you have all the freeplay out. I might take it out again its just I'm tired of pulling the intake all the time.

Heres all my specs I got

J head Castings
Performance Valve Job
Steel Guides Honed to .0025
16 REV Stainless valves 11/32 stems
Intake 1.94 x 4.980 and Exhaust at 1.600 x 5.000
Crane Springs
Crane Retainers
Crane Locks
Steel guides honed to .0025 clearance
Viton Posi-Seals
Bowl Hog and blend Ports
Machine spring pockets
Diamond Pistons 4.030 flat tops
Diamond File Fit Moly rings
Clevite Main and Rod bearings
Racer Brown Cam EH20C
Johnson Hydraulic Lifters
Cometic Head Gaskets at 4.060 x .051
Compression at 9.62:1
Racer Brown Rocker Arms and Hold Downs 1.6/1.5 ratio
ARP Rod Bolts
Rods sized at 6.123
Cam degreed at 105
Crank at 10/10
 
If you pull the intake again, take a long hard look at the contact faces of the lifters. They should be ever so slightly convex (approx .001 crown). A quick check would be to place the contact face of one lifter against the side of another. The crown should be visible. Same goes for the cam lobes, they should all show a similar wear pattern.
 
Interesting that he used "stell" guides with .0025 clearance. All the shops I know would run either bronze guide liner inserts, or full new bronze guides and finish hone to tighten the clearance up to .001. It makes for a better result (much less runout) using a straight pilot and seat cutters. But anyway...I'd bet they never measured the lifter bores. If you pull the intake, pull the noisey lifter and measure the diameter of it, then see if you can score an inside micrometer to measure the lifter bore. You may get some idea with a vernier caliper if it's really oversize, but I wouldnt call it a true measurement of the bore. What happens is, there is so much extra space around the body of the lifter, that the oil escapes, and the pressure the lifter "feels" is way lower than your indicated pressure. So they never really pump up. I've had that in big blocks before, but not any small blocks. I know they offered oversize lifters years ago.
 
Just trying to get the will and urge to pull this thing apart, its been a fight since may and it still isn't right.

It's my terrible luck usually. Because I can say in honesty that 95% of the problems haven't been my own fault or stupidity but bad/wrong parts etc.

Really kills a guys faith in the car hobby at times
 
Hang in there Cory. You have had your frustrations with your car, but I think we've all been there, or maybe we're just on our way there now. :) If you feel like you need to vent some more, PM me or drop me an email. Good luck.
 
I know where your coming from on the frustration. Check out my " Totally Dissapointed " post in engines. I guess i'm going to do a tear down as the builder is skating out on me. When i get mine tore down and have documented everything i'm probably going to call my lawyer buddy. I hate to but if everyone just lays down they will keep walking on us. Done laying down.
Good luck om yours.
 
Well I ran a compression test...

#2 155PSI #4 165PSI #6 180PSI #8 185PSI

#1 180PSI #3 160PSI#5 160PSI #7 165PSI

So I re-test #2 and magically its 175psi. Yes same number of cranks, yes a warm engine and all dry. Can you say lifter issues?

So who likes what lifters? Does Racer brown make lifters? Does Schubeck make steel lifters? Not spending the cash for composite lifters
 
I'm the odd guy here that runs solids. Wouldn't have anything else in a performance engine. "Old school" I guess, but they really aren't that much of a hassle as people think. Easy to adjust, and maybe once a year. All the diesel engines I work on have solid followers and can go 100,000 without an adjustment. Just my 2c
 
Not sure if it helps or not but, I had a noisy lifter problem on my 318 with new j-heads until I upgraded to a 360 witht the same heads, (installed new springs). I went with the comp 901-16. The interesting thing is that 6 months before rebuilding the engine I had the heads rebuilt. New stainless valves, Viton posi seals,new springs, mild porting. I also went to adjustable rockers at that time too. I thought my issues were with the "new" j-heads.
When I pulled the springs off and compared them to the new ones they were almost 3/4" taller than the comps....not sure what they were and never asked the shop. I had similar issues as you. lifters were good first 20 minutes,(Once the engine got nice and warm) not so noisy at low rpm, but got worse with rpm"s. I am convinced it was because of the taller springs having to much pressure. They were a real ***** to compress and get the locks out. All the old lifters looked good though, no unusual wear patterns or such, the old cam did look like it had more wear than normal though.
 
Actually, your results to me mena you have other issues. Possibly valve sealing, or rings not seated. A bad lifter will open a valve later, and close it earlier, leading to a higher test result for a given cylinder. (the intake closing earlier gives the piston more "time" in crank degrees to develop cylinder pressure) I'd be looing more at the heads now than anything else. Pull a valve cover, pull the rocker shaft off, and run a straight edge along the tips of the stems. If they are all set to different heights, take the heads to a good shop and have them fixed. It's an easy way to see how good a shop is at doing valve work.
My $.02 anyway..
 
Hmm well I'll try that, I jsut thought that as I started with the right bank and then the left bank going back to check the other bank againmay have pumped up more.

The lifters clatter like crazy when its started cold after sitting a few days at any rate.

I'll snag the straight edge from work and have a look see. The heads where done by a very reputable shop though.
 
Well I straight edged the right bank valve tips and there wa sonly a .005' diference end to end so still back to lifters.
 
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