Windage Trays And Etc During Cam Break-In

[RustyRatRod]

I don't know about all that hoorah. If all of that were real issues, you'd see people lined up with failed engine parts, because plenty of people build engines and break them right in with all that stuff they said not to. Plus, what about all the factory engines with windage trays? They didn't break them in without them and run around and put them in after. Even the 440 Six Barrel and Six Pack engines with the low taper cam lobes got busted right off and whooped into the parking lot. I think people worry too much.

 

[RustyRatRod]

The problem with FT cam/lifter failures over the last 25 yrs has nothing to do with oil, & everything due to poor quality lifters. Soft [ Chinese ] metal & incorrect radius, or no radius, on the lifter face. We know this in this country because for DECADES, we have re-surfaced FT lifters due to the high cost of new ones. When done properly, they are as good as new & can be re-faced 2-3 times if not severely worn. We know about the problems because the people re-surfacing the lifters were finding soft metal, wrong or incorrect radiusing on new lifters. Not the oil, but the oil companies saw a marketing opportunity & went for it....

For the last 20+ years, I have been grinding a groove down the side of the lifter, from the oil band to within about 1/8" of the base. The lobe/lifter gets a positive oil supply & is no longer reliant on splash. I use a Dremel with a cut off wheel, go about 0.015". Takes 15-20 min to do 16 lifters. Is it really necessary? I don't think it is because of all the oil flying around, but I sleep easier knowing I don't need to worry about lifters/lobes failing from lack of oil.

And that's a good idea. You have pressurized oil right on the lobe. That's how the Crower CamSavers and the Rhoads lifters are made. It's a good idea.

 

[12many]

I don't know about all that hoorah. If all of that were real issues, you'd see people lined up with failed engine parts, because plenty of people build engines and break them right in with all that stuff they said not to. Plus, what about all the factory engines with windage trays? They didn't break them in without them and run around and put them in after. Even the 440 Six Barrel and Six Pack engines with the low taper cam lobes got busted right off and whooped into the parking lot. I think people worry too much.

I’ve installed a few what would be considered slow old school grinds in various Mopar engines over the years, with windage trays, without any real concern about any wiped lobes during break-in. Lubed them good, did the routine, changed the oil afterwards and never gave it a second thought. If there’s any worry by some it’s mostly (as far as I’m concerned) related to aggressive lobes, high spring pressures, increased rocker ratios, and as mentioned earlier, possible parts quality concerns. So doing all the typical preliminary stuff is a given but when one comes across something never thought about or considered (windage tray etc) is it not valid to look into it further at the least? You got guys that build engines professionally, all levels of knowledge and experience that know all of this and to them maybe it’s puzzling or even amusing for others to ponder the idea, who knows, but it’s out there and when you read about it from multiple sources it’s only natural to think about it, IDK, at least I do

 

[RustyRatRod]

I’ve installed a few what would be considered slow old school grinds over in various Mopar engines over the years, with windage trays, without out a concern or second thought about any wiped lobes during break-in. Lubed them good, did the routine, changed the oil afterwards and never gave it a second thought. If there’s any worry by some it’s mostly (as far as I’m concerned) related to aggressive lobes, high spring pressures, increased rocker ratios, and as mentioned earlier, possible parts quality concerns. So doing all the typical preliminary stuff is a given but when one comes across something never thought about or considered (windage tray etc) is it not valid to look into it further at the least? You got guys that build engines professionally, all levels of knowledge and experience that know all of this and to them maybe it’s puzzling or even amusing for others to ponder the idea, who knows, but it’s out there and when you read about it from multiple sources it’s only natural to think about it, IDK, at least I do

Yeah I agree about the aggressive lobes. There's some crazy stuff out there now compared to even 25 years ago. But......and I really don't care who disagrees, here is where I differ. If it's gonna be a street car, I want slow and old school ramps. Hell, they worked long before all this new stuff came out just fine and still do. When I'm building a street engine, I want LONGEVITY and RELIABILITY, because lets face it, this chit ain't cheap. I don't want somethin with a snappy new lobe design only lastin a year or two.

And here comes AJ to tell us how many millions of miles he has on his 367 with fast ramps he never gets tired of talkin about. lol

 

[12many]

Yeah I agree about the aggressive lobes. There's some crazy stuff out there now compared to even 25 years ago. But......and I really don't care who disagrees, here is where I differ. If it's gonna be a street car, I want slow and old school ramps. Hell, they worked long before all this new stuff came out just fine and still do. When I'm building a street engine, I want LONGEVITY and RELIABILITY, because lets face it, this chit ain't cheap. I don't want somethin with a snappy new lobe design only lastin a year or two.

And here comes AJ to tell us how many millions of miles he has on his 367 with fast ramps he never gets tired of talkin about. lol

I completely agree. I’ve swapped out an old school Isky cam that worked great and bought into the aggressive cam world in search for more power. Safe to say I’m having second thoughts (as I’m smack dab in the middle of the changes right now) about it because it’ll be my luck to wipe the mf’r and ruin my damn motor when I should have either gone with another bigger Isky or just left it all alone!

 

[Kendog 170]

How did the factory do it?

With better oil than todays standards is my guess They changed the oil to better accomidate Roller cam and lifters. and what Post #23 says.
JMO I am not an engine builder though I have put a couple together.

 

[gregcon]

It's hard to argue that the oils of the 1970's were better in any way than the oils of today. Oil, by and by, remains a product that hasn't been molested by the tree-hugging crowd, so there's no reason the quality would have suffered.

 

[yellow rose]

I just want someone to explain to me how a windage tray, positioned between the oil and and the crank, and not the crank and the cam, can affect oil to the cam?

IMO, that is just INSANE, and makes zero sense.

If you allow that the articles are calling valley trays “windage” trays...that won’t matter either, because return oil flowing on the cam is probably less than 1% of the oil that gets to the cam.

Like I said, I can’t make the linkage that they are making.

I’ve said before, I have never removed a spring for break in. Ever. The last engine I fired off, I did. I lost a cam over the summer, and all I can attribute the failure to is a bad break in procedure.

So.....because I refuse to use slow, lazy, bottom end killing lobes, I’m going to cryogenically test every cam and lifter I use, pull the inners, run the pig for 20 minutes, install the inners and run the pig for another 20 minutes.

I’m getting old enough to know that there are way more failures today, and I think that is because the lobes are far more aggressive and we are exceeding the limits of the cam core and the lifter.

It wasn’t that long ago that you could buy hard face overlay lobes to keep this stuff alive. And that had its own set of issues.

 

[gregcon]

Cams...talking to a guy last week who lives in Flint, MI. Retired, was a shop floor supervisor. Told me back in the 70's the engine assemblers (SBC) had a rack of 8 different cams, color coded for each engine designation. For two full weeks, one of the assemblers installed the Corvette cams into every engine he touched, because they were the closest and easiest to grab. lol. Plus the usual stories...when they were out of yellow and blue dot cams, those engines got green dot cams....the show must go on.

 

[mbaird]

Ha ! I didnt think about the windage tray being below the crank . But I never thought a windage tray would effect breakin.

 

[12many]

This guy has a visible V8, and has other videos of it spinning up to 7000rpm, maybe the answer lies here!

 

[AJ/FormS]

And here comes AJ to

already said my piece.
I guess I got lucky all three times.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Smoky Yunich , in his book says he installed a window into an oil pan and described what he saw.

 

[yellow rose]

This guy has a visible V8, and has other videos of it spinning up to 7000rpm, maybe the answer lies here!

I would like to see that video with a good crank scraper bolted in there.

Great video. The amount of oil coming off the rods is crazy. I wish it he would have posted what the clearances were and what grade of oil he used.

The bigger the bearing clearance the more oil that exits the rods. The thinner the oil, the more oil gets past the rods. Big clearance and thin oil...oil everywhere.

 

[RustyRatRod]

already said my piece.
I guess I got lucky all three times.

We already knew that.

 

[A Body 440 WHY NOT]

I have installed 3 different cams into my street-367.
Not one got break-in oil.
Every one was run in it's final assembled configuration with dampered springs, with a windage tray, and with the 7qt Milodon road-race pan but with only 5 quarts in it.
After break-in, I installed a new filter and just DROVE it, no mercy.
The cams were;
292/108/.508 Mopar
270/276/110 Hughes
276/286/110 Hughes
I pulled the 292 measured it and sold it to a racer
The 270 cam dropped lobes 4 years later, right after an oilchange; yeah you guessed it,due to lack of ZDDP.
The 276 has been in there since 2004 or 05, not sure. This cam is the most heavily sprung on account of I like the sound of dual 3" pipes screaming at 7200, for 5 to 7 seconds atta time, competing with the howling tires.
Maybe I'm just lucky..........

Nothing wrong with a being lucky !!

 

[70dart340]

Ma Mopar put a crank windage tray in every 340 they built, and they still had a full factory warranty on every motor that went out the door. I agree that modern cams are far more aggressive than the cams back then, but Mother Mopar wouldn't have spent the money to install it without a cost/performance comparison. I'm putting a windage tray in my current stroker build with a solid roller cam. I'll listen to my inner voice, and the performance of my stock 1970 340. I'm building a high performance street car, not a pro stock motor.

 

[12many]

Ma Mopar put a crank windage tray in every 340 they built, and they still had a full factory warranty on every motor that went out the door. I agree that modern cams are far more aggressive than the cams back then, but Mother Mopar wouldn't have spent the money to install it without a cost/performance comparison. I'm putting a windage tray in my current stroker build with a solid roller cam. I'll listen to my inner voice, and the performance of my stock 1970 340. I'm building a high performance street car, not a pro stock motor.

Obviously a solid roller doesn’t elicit break-in concerns during the initial 20 or so minutes that an aggressive flat tappet cam may for some. It’s only about using the tray during initial break-in period, then slap it back in there afterwards. Purely about the merits of doing so “or not” just taking every possible precaution, likely just an extreme measure that can’t be proven to help I think is the consensus.

 

[gregcon]

No way am I going back into an engine a few minutes after I first fire it up to change springs or add a tray. When I turn the key, I expect the engine to not require anything other than a valve adjustment for a long, long time.

If I were that worried about it, I'd add a cam oiling system that could be used during break in, then decommissioned. It would take about 2 feet of tubing.

Then again, I always assumed radical flat tappet cams in 2021 are for the same guys who buy a 6.4L crate engine and put a carb on it.

If your cam is so radical it can't handle a break in, you should be using a roller.

 

[12many]

I think the windage tray topic is beating a dead horse Now then.... who wants to discuss the “Etc” in the title? That of oil galley tubing, plugging and restricting during the break-in. Obviously tubing if not done prior won’t be done post, but what about plugging or restricting (however that would be done) Nobody so far has delved into that statement(s) in the link.

 

[yellow rose]

No way am I going back into an engine a few minutes after I first fire it up to change springs or add a tray. When I turn the key, I expect the engine to not require anything other than a valve adjustment for a long, long time.

If I were that worried about it, I'd add a cam oiling system that could be used during break in, then decommissioned. It would take about 2 feet of tubing.

Then again, I always assumed radical flat tappet cams in 2021 are for the same guys who buy a 6.4L crate engine and put a carb on it.

If your cam is so radical it can't handle a break in, you should be using a roller.

For me, it was I am limited in the valve springs I can use. So I had to use a SFT.

For the W2 engine, it will get a roller and if possible, I want to net .725 lift. That remains to be seen of its possible without a lobe that will either kill power or kill springs.

 

[RustyRatRod]

I just want someone to explain to me how a windage tray, positioned between the oil and and the crank, and not the crank and the cam, can affect oil to the cam?

IMO, that is just INSANE, and makes zero sense.

If you allow that the articles are calling valley trays “windage” trays...that won’t matter either, because return oil flowing on the cam is probably less than 1% of the oil that gets to the cam.

Like I said, I can’t make the linkage that they are making.

I’ve said before, I have never removed a spring for break in. Ever. The last engine I fired off, I did. I lost a cam over the summer, and all I can attribute the failure to is a bad break in procedure.

So.....because I refuse to use slow, lazy, bottom end killing lobes, I’m going to cryogenically test every cam and lifter I use, pull the inners, run the pig for 20 minutes, install the inners and run the pig for another 20 minutes.

I’m getting old enough to know that there are way more failures today, and I think that is because the lobes are far more aggressive and we are exceeding the limits of the cam core and the lifter.

It wasn’t that long ago that you could buy hard face overlay lobes to keep this stuff alive. And that had its own set of issues.

Yeah, I wondered the same thing about how a windage tray could affect cam break in. Strange.

 

[12many]

Here’s an interesting concept, never heard of this method, short of reading of Reed Cams doing something similar but using an actual block. Just another “at first glance” eyebrow raiser: Cam-King | Cam Reseach – Custom Ford Camshafts

 

[moper]

In my opinion, the vast majority of failures are not cam or lifter metallurgy or quality control. It’s two main points of failure:
The block’s machining: the same production line stuff that cut the decks out of whack and bored them out of perpendicular did the cam bore and lifter bores, with the same attention to detail and accuracy that worn production line equipment and line workers delivered elsewhere.
And the ability of the person or persons managing the assembling and initial firing. If the lifters don’t rotate, or the wrong lube and oil are used , or the engine is rotated 400 times trying to get oil and fuel pressure, or doesn’t start right off, or the cooling system can’t handle it and the break in period isn’t long enough- there’s a good likelihood ***** going to go wrong.

None of those have anything to do with the cam and lifter product. Failure of one or more of those is just the symptom.

none of that had anything to do with oil control below the crankshaft. A scraper might reduce splash off the crank, that’s what they do. But they are designed to strip away trapped oil after the crank passes the sump. So there’s still a shitload going “up” as the crank rotates. The original article is off. Way off for an industry paper...

 

[Bewy]

Moper,
There is one problem with your theory that the problem is with block machining, & not lifter or cam quality. There are MANY cam/lifter failures where a new cam replaced a cam that that had been in the same block for years & gave trouble free service...